|
|
Post by RedsandRoyals on Jul 18, 2009 18:23:54 GMT -5
Okay, we've been over this at some length. Punisher=Fail. Every time. The main gun is terrible against most infantry, as it doesn't deny cover or armour (The Eradicator does this better, for less cost. Against Termies, take a Demolisher, which ignores the Armour of Termies, so instead of killing maybe one Termie, you can kill them all, again for less cost. You can also rock the Demolisher against MCs, but you would be better served taking an Exterminator, since it's weapon A) has AP, B) has higher strength, and C) can reroll misses. It also costs less then the Punisher, even with HB sponsons. To make it even remotely effective against tanks, you have to spend an additional 80pts, on top of the absurd amount of points you're already paying for it, AND you have to use an SC that would be more effective in almost any other tank. Also, you have to multi roll is, which is a bad idea ( This article explains why). Read this thread to get an idea of exactly WHY the Punisher fails so hard.The long and short of it is, other things do every job you listed better for less cost. Reds |
|
|
|
Post by Helmian (M.I.A) on Jul 18, 2009 18:31:36 GMT -5
I agree with reds. Multi tasking is not a good idea, especially with a punisher!
BTW here's the plural of fail
Fail-More fail - Most Fail - Punisher.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2009 18:53:35 GMT -5
Your ignorance of the different forms and the relative effectiveness of each type of Guard army is even worse than any crime that my faith in Valkryies might be. I know, I'm kidding! It was just that you said you refused to use 'ANY' amoured vehicle under any circumstance except for valks and vendettas, which for a guard player does seem a little extreme! I did read that thread Reds, just found it a moment ago and posted on it! I am merely speaking from my (so far reasonably fledgling) experience of it. I have only used it in 5 games so far (in which it hasn't yet been destroyed and has been pivotal in victory for all 5). In one of them it unloaded against terminators and didn't just kill one or two, it wiped out the entire squad in one volley and destroyed their Raider in the following turn (following some particularly unlucky lascannon shooting from my mate!). Both Meltas hit and wounded (the lascannon missed) and the two termies falied their invuns. Then I scored 14 hits with the gatling, 12 wounds (with rerolls not that hard!) and he rolled 4 1s. Slightly lucky but not really, only just above average. It doesn't need an AP, that's not the point of it as far as I can see. It's meant to make people take lots and lots of armour saves and thus fail them! My particular Punisher has also ripped up 4 Carnifexes and a Deamon Prince for the record. The Deamon Prince and 2 of the Carnifexes were done away with a single volley. It's been horribly efficient so far, but I will let you know when it fails! |
|
|
|
Post by RedsandRoyals on Jul 18, 2009 19:03:17 GMT -5
Yes, and how many points are you paying for that combo?
Try a Demolisher. It would be 15pts less then a basic Punisher, and doesn't need Pask to make it effective, and ignores Termie armour. It costs less, and does the job just as well, if not better.
That's my point. The Punisher fails so hard because it costs so much to be as effective as the other tanks naturally are.
Also, how are you getting rerolls against Termies? Pask doesn't grant rerolls to wound against anything but MCs.
Reds
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2009 19:17:39 GMT -5
I concede to you on that! It is horribly expensive. But I take it as my one extravegance, I love the fact there are so many other cheaper options because I can squeeze a few of those in too due to their cheapness!  darn it you're right, I was too excited when I read the codex and had some slightly selective reading clearly! Don't tell my mate I cheated in that game hehe, thanks for putting me straight on that. I recognise that Punishers are pretty expensive, I just don't think they '= fail' I just think people are trying to use them for the wrong thing. They are horrible against Monstrous Creatures if they have an ace, but in the three games I've played against Tyranids the 'Mother of Pearl' (the name of my Punisher, still a proxy atm but not for long!  didn't do enough damage to the smaller beasties to warrant it's cost. An Exterminator would have been better for that. But it decimated the big ones! Seriously I recommend at least trying it...but don't shoot at the small things, shoot at the big high armour/wound things. If you make them take enough saves they will die... |
|
|
|
Post by RedsandRoyals on Jul 18, 2009 19:26:47 GMT -5
Don't tell my mate I cheated in that game hehe, thanks for putting me straight on that. Your secret is safe with us.  And man, it would be sweet if the cannon was twin linked... I usually prefer to deny them a cover and/or armour saves outright, which is why I roll the Demo against Termies and the Erad against lighter infantry. Haven't tried it against MCs, though. For that cost though, I could run 2 squads of vets with Demo Charges and 3 Meltas, which is a lot of ouch and more bodies he has to wade through. Still, I might give it a shot next time I fight Nids. I still prefer running Vanqs for tank killing. Ask -88- and Aeon about my Vanquishers... Reds |
|
|
|
Post by Kaikelx on Jul 18, 2009 19:36:40 GMT -5
Lemme guess. Run away. Fast.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2009 9:35:51 GMT -5
I reckon I'm going to start fielding a squadron of 2 Vanquishers for AT based on this thread. It is a very cheap tank and deals out a whole lot of hurt to vehicles. I'll give it a test run but I'm pretty sure I'm convinced!
|
|
|
|
Post by RedsandRoyals on Jul 19, 2009 12:12:30 GMT -5
Depending on the point levels you play at, you only really need one, but a Squadron of 2 will kill whatever you shoot, end of discussion. Just remember to...
A) Give the Cammo Netting. They die on a 4+ since they're in a squadron, so the extra protection will help.
B) Don't move them, if at all possible. That's why when I take 2 Vanqs, I put one on each oend of my deployment zone, so I have a crossfire. It's harder to do this in Squadrons, since they need to be close together, but try to keep them stationary so you can get a boost from the Cammo Netting
C) Shoot them only at hard targets. Leave stuff like Rhinos and Chimeras to your ML and AC teams.
Reds
|
|
|
|
Post by ElegaicRequiem on Jul 19, 2009 15:13:28 GMT -5
This is an off-topic post.
Except for this part saying that Vanqs are effective.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2009 16:15:05 GMT -5
Why is it an off-topic post? Isn't the post about whether or not Vanquishers are good? First we discussed whether Vanquishers were better than Punishers for AT, which ended in a stalemate! Although I do concede to Reds that in terms of points and the fact they were actually designed for AT Vanquishers win hands down! I just like Punishers, and think they can do the job as a secondary role (as can any Leman Russ with the right sponsons).
At the conclusion of the discussion I've decided to go and give Vanquishers a try, they seem like a good bet, I've been convinced by this thread! Seems about as on-topic as it can be. No disrespect meant.
|
|
|
|
Post by RedsandRoyals on Jul 19, 2009 16:18:23 GMT -5
I think he was talking about his own post... In a shameless plug, I'm going to mention this article I just wrote about the Vanq, if you're looking for tips on how to use it. Reds |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2009 16:32:39 GMT -5
Thanks that really helps Reds, you know your s**t! I think I'll take one then and give it camo netting. Despite your berating and general tirade I'm going to stick with my Punisher with Meltas + Pask. I also have a Demolisher and a Hellhound in 1500points, do you think I need any more tanks? I was thinking maybe a LBT too, or a second Vanquisher, but you say in your essay that 1 should be enough. I need to test run it. Any ideas for modelling camo netting?
|
|
|
|
Post by RedsandRoyals on Jul 19, 2009 16:35:20 GMT -5
Keep the Punisher if it works for you.
I can't believe I just said that...
A Punisher, Hellhound, Demolisher, and Vanquisher are more than enough at 1500pts, especially if you really tool your tanks up. As for camo netting, try Cheese Cloth. It works quite well.
Reds
|
|
|
|
Post by Macfeegle on Jul 19, 2009 21:04:15 GMT -5
Nice article Reds.
I noticed you didn't point out that the HK missile always fires at BS3 regardless of Pask.
(Thought it was worth mentioning...)
|
|
|
|
Post by RedsandRoyals on Jul 19, 2009 21:07:04 GMT -5
Nice article Reds. I noticed you didn't point out that the HK missile always fires at BS3 regardless of Pask. (Thought it was worth mentioning...) >.> <.< Well, you learn something every day... Thanks for the catch. I'll change it. Reds |
|
|
|
Post by Ignatius on Jul 19, 2009 22:18:28 GMT -5
I'm thinking about not running any tanks for the next few games I play. In the last 4ish games I've played I have zero hits total with my vanquisher even with pask. The pakquisher isn't very effective if you forgot to bless your dice....
|
|
|
|
Post by Macfeegle on Jul 20, 2009 1:26:12 GMT -5
Nice article Reds. I noticed you didn't point out that the HK missile always fires at BS3 regardless of Pask. (Thought it was worth mentioning...) Well, you learn something every day... Thanks for the catch. I'll change it. Reds No probs.. I only got pulled up on it myself recently. It still gives you that boost to penetration though which is kinda nice. I'm totally with you on the Vanquisher in Camo Netting though... It is a lovely little thing to have sitting in the forest. I feel just like a WWII German tank commander when doing that... ;D |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2009 4:51:43 GMT -5
I can't wait to get that order off Forge World and then go to work with the cheese clothe! |
|
|
|
Post by ElegaicRequiem on Jul 20, 2009 10:08:36 GMT -5
Nice article Reds. I noticed you didn't point out that the HK missile always fires at BS3 regardless of Pask. (Thought it was worth mentioning...) How do you figure? The entry for HKs says to treat them as an additional weapon, and Pask's entry says he improves BS to 4. If you're going by the entry that says HKs are fired at BS of 3, then the entry for russes saying that the BS of the vehicles is 3 takes precedence over Pask as well. |
|
|
|
Post by RedsandRoyals on Jul 20, 2009 10:14:05 GMT -5
Actually, I think Req is right here. It doesn't say it's ALWAYS fired at BS 3, regardless of who's in the turret. I think Pask would boost them.
Not that it would make a huge difference, because it's still not worth taking.
Reds
|
|
|
|
Post by Macfeegle on Jul 20, 2009 10:19:19 GMT -5
I was working from the fact that it says "they are fired at a Ballistic Skill of 3" not "at the Ballistic Skill of the vehicle".
That to me indicates that the intention is for it always to fire at BS3 and not be modified by special rules etc. I guess I could be being over-zealous, but RAW?
|
|
|
|
Post by ElegaicRequiem on Jul 20, 2009 11:26:20 GMT -5
It could be that GW intends for the HKs to be even more worthless, because they're now specifying the BS of the HK separately. It's in the SM 'dex as well... I leave it up to whomever wishes to say otherwise...
I second Reds: not worth taking.
|
|
|
|
Post by Kaikelx on Jul 20, 2009 14:49:26 GMT -5
I used to consider them as maybe a nice opening salvo for my Chimeras for my very first conception of the 482nd, but that was before I looked at the profile  |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2009 15:28:34 GMT -5
I thought you never even considered using 'ANY' armoured vehicles except Valks/Vendettas KaikelX? |
|
darn it you're right, I was too excited when I read the codex and had some slightly selective reading clearly! Don't tell my mate I cheated in that game hehe, thanks for putting me straight on that. 
didn't do enough damage to the smaller beasties to warrant it's cost. An Exterminator would have been better for that. But it decimated the big ones! Seriously I recommend at least trying it...but don't shoot at the small things, shoot at the big high armour/wound things. If you make them take enough saves they will die...
