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Post by John_Galt (M.I.A) on May 18, 2009 15:46:55 GMT -5
My friend is dusting off his old eldar, and we've decided to have a little 500 point game in a week or so with my old Dark Angels. So, I ran over to GW and picked up the new smurf dex to find it dripping with cheese.
Since I'm 200% sure he'll be taking a wraithlord, my question is what do I take in 500 points of SM's (or DA's if I choose to use their dex instead, but it's significantly less cheesy) that can kill it without crippling the rests of my army?
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Post by Macfeegle on May 18, 2009 22:22:12 GMT -5
If you are certain he is going to "dust off" his Wraithlord, field some sniper scouts. Relatively cheap points wise, can be fielded as Troops in the new SMurf Dex, they can Scout and Infiltrate (although I'm still yet to work out how that works in 5th Ed. as the way I see it they'll always be pretty much in LOS). If you want to up their survivability, give them the cloaks to increase their cover save.
If using DA you could give thought to a Ravenwing. Having 6 bikes plus Attack Bike and Landspeeder is really nifty as one choice. Especially as the bikes can outflank. Add in meltas & flamer and you're a huge thorn in the side (literally as you outflank). Make up the rest of the points with some Tac squads, Lascannon Razorback and a Whirlwind.
Now forgive me if I didn't work out points, but messing around with those sort of combos should give you something nice to create an enjoyable game.
Cheers
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Post by The Envoy (AWOL) on May 18, 2009 22:32:47 GMT -5
Sniper Scouts are an iffy prospect unless taken in one large or multiple small units. They lost their BS of 4, and with the new Sniper Rule, they're really hurting. But, they still are probably the best and most cost effective thing to take down a Wraithlord in a small points Marines list.
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Post by ElegaicRequiem on May 18, 2009 22:50:54 GMT -5
Sniper scouts are the new "nerfed" poster children. It sucks, because I had a sniper scout army going on... What got a bit better, and what I would use is attack bikes. Two multi-meltas and an HB for 140 pts. Great for AT, and good against infantry as well. Not exactly sure how it would do aganist wraithlords, but you could cruise around taking out eldar psykers first. Then stuff w/ wraithsight are a lot easier. You could also try a thunderfire cannon. I'd go with the same strategy as if you were fielding guardsmen: 'force a save' spam. It's gotta die someday... I hadn't realized how cheap wraithlords were  Edit: If you take Khan, and some bikers as troops... Khan on bike: 205 Bike squad w/ p fist, melta gun, melta gun: 135 Bike squad w/ p sword, plasma gun, atk bike:150 I don't think I'd have anyone outflank with this list. Attach Khan to the bike squad w/ power fist, and go wraithlord hunting. I was going to put melta bombs in the second squad, but krak is good enough for eldar vehicles. There'd be some serious wound allocation strategy here; it's a very aggressive, all-or-nothing list, but rolling a 6 to wound with Khan against the wraithlord would make it all worthwhile. The second bike squad would dance around enemy infantry whittling them down before charging. |
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Post by John_Galt (M.I.A) on May 18, 2009 23:00:11 GMT -5
Thank you guys very much, this is very helpful! Interesting bit on the scout snipers, I've actually used them to great effect against eldar. A sniper scout squad with an autocannon (old rules  ) infiltrated into a building and kept a farseer squad (his HQ, whatever it's called) pinned untill my assault marines + Captain could swoop in and chop them to ribbons. He did fry the autocannon scout's brains, however  New intel, just recieve a text from him, and I quote, "Sweet I just found a brightlance," So his wraithlord is almost certainly sporting that plus a missile launcher I was thinking of throwing in some plasma weapons to deal with the wraithlord though (as old school Dark Angels, I have plenty of plasma cannons lying around). Does it not have the same aromor as my marines? Good Idea/Bad Idea? (I've never actually encountered one before, which is mostly why it scares me so much) EDIT: Sorry, edited while you posted, was considering a librarian as HQ, but then realized I don't have a librarian model |
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Post by ElegaicRequiem on May 18, 2009 23:08:16 GMT -5
I have no faith in libbies... also, tell me what you think of the list above. It's not everyone's style, but...
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Post by John_Galt (M.I.A) on May 18, 2009 23:29:19 GMT -5
That is a very clever plan, and would definatly cause him trouble! Unfortunatly, though, I only have 3 bikes and no way to proxy Khan >_< Everything else, I have. From Assault marines to Whirlwinds! (Only 3 bikes and 1 landspeeder, sorry should have specified, not much of a Ravenwing fan).
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Post by ElegaicRequiem on May 18, 2009 23:39:25 GMT -5
Ok. I'll be back with another crazy scheme... muhahaha...
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Post by terminus on May 18, 2009 23:50:51 GMT -5
The problem with scouts is their rifles wound on 4+, rather than the old 2+. So considering they hit on 4+ as well, they cause a wound 25% of the time before saves. But, they are cheap and can have a heavy weapon in a squad worth less than 100 points.
Anyway, you only need one thing to WTFpwn anything he may throw at you. 5 Terminators with thunder-hammers and stormshields. 200 points. The biggest block of cheese in all the land.
How about?
Chaplain
5 Assault Terminators
5 Scouts with sniper rifles and missile launcher
5 Tactical Marines; sgt w/ power sword and combi-melta
500 points on the dot
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Post by ElegaicRequiem on May 18, 2009 23:51:28 GMT -5
Master of the Forge w/ beamer on bike: 155
Tac squad w/ flamer, ML, storm bolter: 180
Tac squad w/ flamer, ML:170
MoF is on a bike because bikes get relentless. Conversion beamer that can fire while moving? Cheese. Plain and simple. It's defiantly a 'stay away while I shoot you' army. No longer my style, but with combat squads it's not so bad. Still risky, though. But you're not going to get around that w/ a 500 pt list against a wraithlord.
The advice I offer is this: take out the psykers, and quickly! Have the MoF cruise around explaining the definition of cheese tactic to all who will listen. Good rolls w/ this, and everything else should fall in line.
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Post by ElegaicRequiem on May 18, 2009 23:53:51 GMT -5
Terminus reminded me of the poisoned heavy bolters that scouts can take. That'd be good against the wraithlord. Consider that thing.
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Post by John_Galt (M.I.A) on May 19, 2009 0:10:42 GMT -5
A good idea terminus, the assault termies would be great for thaking a wraithlord down, so long as my rolls arn't terrible that is. Master of the Forge w/ beamer on bike: 155 You've just put a grin on my face so large I make the Grinch look like he's weeping. That has got to be the most deliciously evil plan I have ever seen. I may have to do this just for the sheer awsomeness it is. I was inspired to make this: (if you think of a better caption feel free to edit it!)  Again, thank you all for such excellent feedback! |
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Post by ElegaicRequiem on May 19, 2009 0:12:44 GMT -5
Glad my evil pleases you. If you want any more nefarious ideas, let me know!
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Post by Ymmot (M.I.A) on May 19, 2009 0:15:13 GMT -5
Master of the Forge w/ beamer on bike: 155 You've just put a grin on my face so large I make the Grinch look like he's weeping. That has got to be the most deliciously evil plan I have ever seen. I may have to do this just for the sheer awsomeness it is. Again, thank you all for such excellent feedback! This is exactly the cost of a warithlord with a bright lance and a missle launcher. I'd probably just try kraking it to death... best to kill it at a distance. |
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Post by terminus on May 19, 2009 13:37:36 GMT -5
That is not cheese. It's a perfectly valid tactic that is entirely within the rules. There is no twisting the words to get an illogical super awesome advantage. Maybe my perception has been warped by WM/Hordes, but 40K players whine about cheese way too damn much. Play like you gotta pair!
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Post by commissargaunt on May 19, 2009 14:21:23 GMT -5
i know what utter cheddar cheese, the squad of ten GK termies deep striking with a grand master and a psycannon. cheese. they're almost freaking unstoppable.
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Post by terminus on May 19, 2009 17:49:26 GMT -5
Deep striking terminators are not cheese, especially against Imperial Guard. They're just asking for a single AP2 large blast to wipe them out to a man.
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Post by ElegaicRequiem on May 19, 2009 19:18:33 GMT -5
That is not cheese. It's a perfectly valid tactic that is entirely within the rules. There is no twisting the words to get an illogical super awesome advantage. Maybe my perception has been warped by WM/Hordes, but 40K players whine about cheese way too damn much. Play like you gotta pair! In order to be a valid tactic, it needs to be legal. As long as that criterion is met, then anything that seems really unfair in general, or to a specific situation is a cheese tactic. There's nothing wrong with it, it's just a category name. A proper list should balance cheese, fluff, and play style. This is the first time a motie has been made in my honor... I don't know what to say. There are so many people to thank... Oh, holy Emperor: John_Galt, take the Amblin logo and do that picture. The one with ET and Elliot on the bike silhouetted on the moon... |
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Post by John_Galt (M.I.A) on May 19, 2009 22:55:56 GMT -5
OH GOD THAT WILL BE AWSOME! I'm getting to work now! If you can find a pic of a techmarine on a bike send it to me, othewise I'll just use a regular one. Is it bad that I'm putting of writing an army list lol? EDIT: I'm just going to silhouette it. Damn that's a difficult word to spell. If you think of a good caption let me know. EDIT: Attempt 1:  Was also considering "It's Dangerously Cheesey!" or "Now it just needs a storm shield option!" EDIT: I should have used the same moon from the last one! Gah. Think of a good caption and I'll do it tomorrow |
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Post by ElegaicRequiem on May 20, 2009 14:15:47 GMT -5
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Post by Hetfiltrator on May 23, 2009 15:32:56 GMT -5
The problem with scouts is their rifles wound on 4+, rather than the old 2+. So considering they hit on 4+ as well, they cause a wound 25% of the time before saves. But, they are cheap and can have a heavy weapon in a squad worth less than 100 points. Anyway, you only need one thing to WTFpwn anything he may throw at you. 5 Terminators with thunder-hammers and stormshields. 200 points. The biggest block of cheese in all the land. How about? Chaplain 5 Assault Terminators 5 Scouts with sniper rifles and missile launcher 5 Tactical Marines; sgt w/ power sword and combi-melta 500 points on the dot yeah terminus snipers never wounded on 2s they hit on 2s but this is probably late but captain bolt pistol power weapon tactical squad flamer and myssile launcher 5 scouts snipers and myssile launcher 5 scouts snipers and myssile launcher techmarine the main reason to take a techie is the bolster defense rule which allows you to add +1 to a ruins cove save |
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Post by ElegaicRequiem on May 23, 2009 16:58:49 GMT -5
Snipers used to hit on 2+ and wound on 4+. That's why I'm so bitter about SM scouts having BS3.
Myssile launcher? Actually, that's a cool way to spell it.
And John_Galt, what do you think of my picture?
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Post by John_Galt (M.I.A) on May 24, 2009 15:34:22 GMT -5
I love it! If a techmarine rode a motorcycle off a ramp into battle, that's probably what it would look like.
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Post by ElegaicRequiem on May 24, 2009 19:00:50 GMT -5
I figure every sm on a bike gets up on the handlebars at least once per battle. It's impossible to get a 90 degree profile of a techie, so that's actually mine. Glad you like it. I didn't know how to incorporate all the info into the text, though.
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Post by John_Galt (M.I.A) on May 24, 2009 21:40:10 GMT -5
I think that covered it quite well. ;D
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) infiltrated into a building and kept a farseer squad (his HQ, whatever it's called) pinned untill my assault marines + Captain could swoop in and chop them to ribbons. He did fry the autocannon scout's brains, however 
