Bretonnians VS. Empire

[Inquisitor Macala]

Alright. So, my inner voice, Inquisitor Macala, and his lackey, Commissar Daviks, have been nagging me for awhile now about my fantasy choice. For being a pure Imperial in 40k, I am a total heritic in fantasy. I play Orcs and Gobbos.

But my inner voices have been critizing me over this choice, and I have finnaly decieded that, being the Imperial fanatic I am, I need to leave my heretical ways behind me, and find a nice human army in fantasy to fight as.

So, this having been done, I now have a choice. Bretonnians or Empire. To make this easier (or harder....) I've given myself guidlines for what I want.

I want an army of nothing but Knights. Now, I need to know if I should roll with Bretonnia's elite, or the Empire's best. I am totally divided on the subject:


EMPIRE-

I love the models
I have more German cultural info stored in my head then British and French, which makes backstories easier
Kurt Helborg. Seriously, he's awesome, and I want to proxy his rules for a character of my own.
The Emperor. 'nuff said.
Runefangs. DUH.

BRETONNIANS-

The rules are spectacular (Lance formation, ect)
Its made to be mostly knights.
Peasants. If I field infantry, Emperor forbid, I like carapace-clad conscripts.
The King. Its a King. I love kings. They rock.
Grail Knights. Immortal knights that have drank from the Grail? Yes please.
The Green Knight. Such a bloody beautiful model.


So, as you can see, I'm in a dillema. Any opinions on what army I should go with?

And, if its not copywrite infringement, could someone send me the stats of a Bretonnian Knight versus Empire Knight in a pm?

Thanks

[kaime]

I recommend bretonnia, its the only army really designed for mounted warfare. The lance formation is brilliant and significantly enhances the strategic options of your knights.

The empire knights have slighty better armor but are more or less the same as the basic knight of the realm of bretonnia.

Remember that bretonnia despises shooting, so if you want some ranged power go for empire.

[Makarova (M.I.A)]

An Empire army probably has the option to be more competitive, by making the main force Knights, backed up by cannons, steam tanks, popemobiles and cheddar monks.

But that's utterly lame, and anyone playing like that should have their fingers clipped off and force fed to Gav "Vampire Count" Thorpe.

Though basically, the main differences are:

Empire positives:
-Better armour, a combined save of 1+ rather than the normal 2+.
-Inner Circle Knights are S4, and can still use lances.
-Kurt Helburg and the Grand Master makes for inspiring leaders.
-Gendarmes is the coolest thing since lochaber axes.
-You can use optional WD rules to highly customize your own knightly order.
-Have Pistoliers, which is an absolutely amazing unit to support Knights. Plus, they're technically cuirassiers, which is technically a knight in stripped-down armour and with a firearm.
-Should you like, they have more ranged war machines available as well as various hand-held ranged weapons. Crossbows are probably your best bet. And scouting Huntsmen can help with march blocking.
-Warrior Priests are decent in a combat, provide a dispel dice, and can have barded horses. Plus, they give your knights Hatred, which is extremely useful as lances always seem to miss and usually wound on 2+ on the charge. A very, very useful guy to have around. Adds magic defence, killing power, hatred and snazzy prayers.

Empire Negatives:
-Lower movement than a Bret knight (Knightly Orders that is, not Pistoliers).
-Less mounted/Knightly units in total, not as flexible.
-Can't do a head-on charge without characters, while Brets can.

Bretonnia Positives:
-Higher movement than an Empire knight due to the Purebreed Warhorse rule.
-Lance Formation is devastating, it makes knights a lot more damaging and makes them able to charge the front of an infantry unit and actually win.
-More knightly units, flexible. Headstrong mediocre knights, standard knights, elite knights thinking they can fight with claymores on horseback, grail knights, flying pegasus knights.
-All knights are at least immune to panic, with more advanced ranks being able to re-roll psych test or even be totally immune to psychology.
-Peasants can use the leadership of nearby knights. Not very useful in an all-cavalry army, but if you have Mounted Yeomen, it'll make them a bit more brave.
-Mounted Yeomen. Ugly and expensive metal models, but they're damn good as disposable, fast troops. Maybe the best disposable cavalry in the game.
-Peasant Bowmen are probably the best archers in the game due to their low cost and longbows.
-The Blessing of the Lady. By allowing your opponent the first turn, your army can pray to the Lady for protection. This gives all Knights a 6+ ward save, which is always useful when the cannonballs, magic and greataxes start flying. However, they loose the save if they flee or if their champion refuses a challenge.

Bretonnia Negatives:
-As noted, less armour.
-Less ranged support, although the Trebuchet is a damn fine catapult. Occupies a Rare slot though.
-They're more expensive than a standard Empire knight. Add in the specialised elite units, and the more bodies a knightly Empire army gets is not to be sniffed at.

Personally, I'd go with an Empire army. Something like 2 units of 5-8 common knights, a big fat unit of 9 inner circles with a character, 2 units of 5 pistoliers, and possible a cannon or some crossbowmen for ranged support.

Purely based on me liking the central European renaissance design more than the Hundred Years War. So frankly, both armies are a valid choice. But I'd say Brets is the more competitive one on higher points levels, where their added units and the Empire's lack of mounted flexibility will begin to show. Before that, I advise you to choose the ones you prefer the models of.

Some tips:
-Peasant Man-at-Arms kind of suck. Bad leadership and overly expensive for what they do. Use them if you want to, I absolutely would as the models are lovely, but don't expect much from them.
-Peasant Bowmen loves to Skirmish. Give them pleasure.
-Kurt Helburg is a monster. He can break most things on the charge due to wacky combat resolution from a runefang + laurels of victory. He's a much better cavalry commander than the Emperor.
-You're going to want some magic defence against most opponents. I warmly recommend Warrior Priests for the Empire, but Wizards are flexible, have horses and generally begs to be put in Pistolier units and harass the battlefield. Same thing goes for Damsels with Mounted Yeomen.

There you go, that's all I can come up with at the moment. Good luck with the army!

And always remember that Daemons of Chaos, Vampire Counts, Warriors of Chaos and probably the new Lizardmen are fairly overpowered. Especially DC and VC.

[seed]

I play bretonnia and there just fantastic our current club has no fanasty players so there on the shelf. Makarova basicly covered most things but I will add my 2 cents.
A damseil lvl1 or 2 carrying 2 scroll is almost need in this magic heavy eddition I find that law of life (I think its life can't find my rule book) which has all the weather spells complment the army playstyle. If you end up against a gun(black powder units) line and you get lucky enough to roll the rain lord power you will be a happy chappy.
Sorry if this is written poorly proberly should have a coffee before posting in the morning.

[Colonel-Commissar, (M.I.A)]

I vote for Empire,just cause theys got an actual Emperor

[seed]

That is the polar opposite of heresy.

[Makarova (M.I.A)]

Include a magician with scrolls if you absolutely need to, but know that you're giving in to the temptation of powergaming.

Because level 1 scroll-toting mages = Losers. Powergamers = Losers who use said scroll-caddies.

Though, do it if you have to, it's not a big deal. It's not like your entire army is made of Swordsmen rather than Halberdiers, has a gunline, has a Runepriest special character on an altar, has an Altmer noble or is Vampire Counts.

And yes, the Lore of Life is useful, especially in a Bretonnian army where you can only choose between Life and Beasts (and Heavens for a Lord-level damsel). Beasts is mainly good if you want Bear's Anger to turn your champions and heroes to slaving monsters in close combat, so in my opinion Life is the best all-round lore. Has good damage spells, has healing, ranged protection and said Rain Lord.

And if you ever get a Lord-level Damsel, give her Heavens. 4 spells in one of the most awesome lores ever, but where the first spell is fairly bad and so the lore is not very useful for level 2 mages? Yes please!

[seed]

I found that scroll Caddys where manatory as I use to play against a magic heavy high elf army under the old book. The current high book scares me.

[Makarova (M.I.A)]

It still sucks. Spears are still worthless, and S3 still don't kill. Even if they all strike first.

[knight (M.I.A)]

Never had any real problems with neither my VC or WoC with HE. There not that strong as everyone says. And the WoC are actually underpowered what the VC are overpowered.

[Makarova (M.I.A)]

So wait a minute...

You never had any problems facing one of the wimpiest armies out there, with two of the strongest?

[Inquisitor Macala]

Thanks guys, for the imput. Sadly, however, my Fantasy army is being put on hold. Too busy buying dark angel's boxes. =)

In any case, I'll keep the tips in mind. Thanks especially too Makarova, for the awesome rundown and sending the stats.

[Makarova (M.I.A)]

Glad to help as always.

[knight (M.I.A)]

Honestly the old Chaos was way stronger than those wimps you have now. And yes I'm normally supposed to have problems with HE as I'm 100% reliant on magic as a Tzeentch player.
VC is actually one of the strongest same as High Elves which regularly turn Skeletons into bone dust and also Dwarves almost always beat VC. Even Bretons can rock the house against them.

WoC on the other hand are fairly balanced and not overpowered at all unless you cheat...

[Makarova (M.I.A)]

Bah, HE are only truly powerful if you use a Star Dragon and loads of mages.

And that's powergaming. Powergaming is evil.

Real HE players use rank after rank of gleaming Spearmen. Don't argue with me.

Though I don't understand how you can say that the old Hordes of Chaos were better than the new ones. It was a very well known fact that the old book was the worst in the game. Seriously, the only truly good thing they had was Furies, Marauders and possibly Chaos Knights. Chaos Warriors were basically useless, and daemons close to suicidal.

But this is a discussion I'd rather not get into. I'll take your word on the new WoC, that they are balanced, simply because I've never fought against them myself. And I know that Dwarves can beat VC, and that Brets can if they get some good lance charges, but then again both stunties and Brits have been able to do that with everyone since they got their last codexes.

And my views of Overpowered are a bit strange. I'm strictly realistic when I think of WHFB, I only care for army lists that look sensible and would work in a real combat. Which also means I'll consider HE bad because their Spearmen are, even if most players actually don't use them on a realistic scale. Which of course is utterly lame. And that's also why I consider VC severely overpowered. A realistic core army would consist of a bunch of skeleton units, some zombies and a vampire or so. Vampire + 24 Skeletons + possible 25 pts combat resolution banner = probably the best unit in the game that's still sensible and realistic.

Trust me, when the new VC book came out, I fought four games against my brother's HE (Spearmen-based army with some swordmasters and two ballistas), and got 3 Massacres in a row. It was very obvious that if you play fluffy and realistic, VC totally annihilate HE. He's even a much better player and tactician than me, and in the fourth game I almost tried to loose (got a minor victory instead) and played like a drunkard.

So frankly, we really won't get anywhere with this discussion. =)

[Ymmot (M.I.A)]

Honestly the only reason I would ever start a WHFB army would be so I could emulate Napoleonic style warfare with ranks of hand gunners and cannons supported by light calvery...Empire seems the army I could do with with quite easily.

but Makarova has convinced me I probably shouldn't so I'll stick with 40k.

besides...I've filled up my head with so much 40k knowledge that I don't think I have room to learn another game.

[Makarova (M.I.A)]

Yes, Empire have all of that. And their new models are designed to be 17-18th century rather than 16th (which is of course almost as out of place as Bretonnians not importing full plate), which you might appreciate even if it looks weird as hell in the greater picture.

If you're truly interested, I'll send you my version of the game, which is a lot more satisfying and realistic if you know anything at all about historical feudal warfare. It makes the game fun rather than frustrating.

[knight (M.I.A)]

Losing with VC is hard indeed. But quite easy with WoC...

And well I assume you wouldn't see my army as realistic then... 2 Sorcerors, 1 Grand Sorceror, and loads of Warriors and some Knights. Oh and not to forgeta few hounds as I had to spend some more points...

[seed]

Ymmot did you think about using empires for a back water guard platoon?