Taking on Armored Companies

[Turtleboy(AWOL)]

This thread is dedicated to making infantry in flak jackets beat the heaviest armored tanks in the imperium.

I've been relying on lascannons & missile launchers lately, and after analyzing this tactics shortcomings, I found that my problem was thinking that lascannons could reliably kill leman russes. wondering if my dice have just been bad for the last few games, I rolled about 20 simulation rolls of 3x lascannon teams vs the front armor of a leman russ (as that's all our infantry will get 95% of the time) and didn't even score one 'kill.' I realized that pretty much no matter how many lascannons I had, I'd never kill an armored company in a stand and shoot slugfest. that 'win' goes to the armored company.

so how else do you kill a tank?

rear and side shots. preferably rear, but side works alot better than killing yourself for a few potshots to the front armor. the question now: how to get into the side/rear arc of a tank with infantry.

chimerae: it's a possibility, but I'd think it's almost guaranteed that our chimera and squad will be dust before we make it to the line of tanks. s8 ordinance hurts vs av12 front armor and as soon as you get close, you're looking at taking hits on av10 side armor from a line of tanks where even a boltgun or heavy stubber has a chance of killing our chimera. that starts to sound like the wrong answer to our attempt at getting into the flanks/rear of an enemy tank line to me.

the drop troops doctrine: now we're talking! suiciding elements (if not all) of your army at the armored company, and taking stripped down squads with a meltagun only in them seems like a much better approach. I wouldn't even give them a vox cuz they're just kamikaze troops.

maybe a plasma gun or vet sgt. with plasma pistol would be advantageous, though this is really expensive, but hey, if we're paying 60pts just to buy a delivery platform for a meltagun or plasma gun, why not add on another plasma shot for 16pts right? then we have +1Ld as well on the off chance our squad doesnt get totally vaporized as soon as our enemy can unload all of it's 'hah you get no armor save cuz you arent in cover' weapons at you. I would think that carapace armor would be wasted because armored company is full of ap4 guns.

on second examination, a vet sgt would probably be really nice, since an average of 50% of our squads will hit with their meltaguns (BS 3), the other 50% of the squads will just be annihilated before they can blink if not dropped with a good number of other squads who all threaten similarly. an extra plasma shot would be very worth 16pts at this point - it'd boost our average 'to hit' ratio up to 100% rate for 1 hit landing which could take down the vehicle.

how to drop: I'd offer that a daring approach would probably pay off the best. we'd need the 'within 6"' melta bonus on every squad that we get to drop if at all possible.

here's a squad kitted out according to the above ramblings:


thoughts on sharpshooters: not worth it because we'd only have 1 die that can cook a tank and can be affected by the doctrine.

what to you guys think? worth 10pts? I'm tending to think no. I'd rather keep it as cheap as possible since these squads dont have the longest lifespan and arent used for their overall firepower, just for a shot or two.

also what do you think about 16pts for the vet. sgt. upgrade?

also what in the heck do we do if we can't deepstrike? I guess a formation of heavy weapon squads will be needed just for non-deepstrike missions.

at any rate, that's my thoughts, anyone else have an idea about how to take on vehicle heavy armies?

[Deleted]

u did a simulation of 3 lasscanonns shootin at the front armour of a russ, 20 X? and u didnt get one kill. .thats really strange cuz its not THAT hard..maybe the dice gods are just laughing at you..but either way u made some good pointers..ive been useing the extra plasma shot also.. it also works well for heavy infantry to..like my brothers DA *shakes fist*

[Turtleboy(AWOL)]

I'm wondering about meltabombs for the sgt and maybe krak grenades for the troopers (just to make it fluffy so it's not a meltagun, plasma pistol, and 8 guys waiting to pick up the gun off the person who was using it but died and otherwise just sitting around with no purpose), but doubtin it because no one in their right mind would let a squad with a melta/plasma sit around and continue to nuke their tanks at point blank range..

though still, if you dropped a 45 man platoon in one deployment, that'd be alot of guardsmen to kill in one turn to prevent the second salvo/meltabomb/krak grenade follow up

[Turtleboy(AWOL)]

I've been thinking about the line squad I kitted out for drop troop tank hunting duties, and the glaring weakness it has is in the 'no deepstriking allowed' type missions. so what to do if this turns up? my only thought is to give em back their heavy weapon so they can take potshots.

anyone else have ideas?

I was thinking infiltration, but if you can't deepstrike then you can't infiltrate either so that's out.

malachi said:

u did a simulation of 3 lasscanonns shootin at the front armour of a russ, 20 X? and u didnt get one kill. .thats really strange cuz its not THAT hard..maybe the dice gods are just laughing at you..

dude..totally

ive been useing the extra plasma shot also.. it also works well for heavy infantry to..like my brothers DA *shakes fist*

heh too true - nothing like a guardsman nuking a terminator!

here's the kitted out squad, versitile enough to deal with non-deepstrike missions, but specialized for missions which allow deepstrike.

[Deleted]

Dude, if you can't deep strike against an armoured company then you are screwed. When i played against AC in a thousand point game i have 5 lascannons and 2 missile launchers, and that accounted for only one direct firing basilisk. what did the damage, i.e leveling an executioner and another basilisk was my deep striking units, i had 5 deep striking vets with 3 meltas and 2 units of deep striking stormies, one with 2 meltas other with 2 plasmas. (didn't have models for another 2 meltas, which goes back to the age old debate...) So taking deep striking into consideration i would use the 86pt squad you came up with. Use vets with deep strike and 3 meltas and deep strike command squads with 3 meltas in each, 4 if you want.

If your opponent wants to play AC i think he should let you be able to deep strike. Maybe try setting up a scenario where his AC is travelling in column and have your infantry ambush him, as would be the most likely real world scenario. If he needs further persuassion inform him of how the Iraqi insurgents target Coalition armour. They don't say, "right guys you go one end of the desert and we'll sit at the other and you pummel us for six hours and we may hit you with an RPG but most likely we won't." They ambush them on small city roads when travelling in column where they can bring their weapons to bare, Viet Cong also springs to mind here. If he doesn't agree to this scenarion set up another where you have a heavily fortified position, i.e. bunkers for all your squads and he has to come and get you as this is what is says IG ACs are for, "smashing aside heavily fortified positions". You could give you units cameoline and sharpshooters to represent a well dug in, hardened company. These are pretty much the only 2 justifiable situations for using an AC, and should both be hugely fun and challenging games for all parties involved.

So to sum up,

Ambush scenario: drop troops, infiltrators. Lots of special weapons, some anti tank weapons (lascannons and missile)

Fortified position: Cameoline, sharpshooters, lots of heavy weapons, maybe some indirect basilisks, or even basilisks in fortified bunkers, a bit like German 88s in bunkers used in WW2.

Hope that helps

[Turtleboy(AWOL)]

unfortunately if I go to a tournament, and I draw 'vs. Armored Company' there's nothing but a face to face showdown to the death.

I guess what I'm trying to reason out is how I can make a balanced list that'll be able to take all comers including an Armored Company list.

That being said, I'm tending to think that the 126pt squad would be my squad choice at this point, simply because it has what IG line squads specialize in: versatility

126pts is undoubtedly a hefty price for a squad of 5+ armored BS 3 guardsmen, and this squad is an example of the maximum armament.

the 126pt
*heavy weapon (for conventional fights)
*AT special weapon
*plasma/meltabomb sgt
*krak grenade squad

is, I'd argue, the best chance our line squads have vs. tanks, and vs an armored company, dont we need that best chance? also, I want to have alot of points in the troops choices in my army, I want to use the base line troop squad for all it's worth, because not only is it fluffy, it's regarded as one of the weak points in our armylist so will never be considered 'cheesy.' beyond this, the line squad has a few key advantages over special weapon squads.

1) it has more troopers and thus can soak a greater number of shots before being fully retired off the field. (unlike command and special weapon squads)

2) it can have a veteran sgt or vox for +leadership (unlike special weapon squads)

3) it can have krak grenades (unlike specal weapon squads)

If I dropped a stormtrooper squad, hardened veteran squad, command squad and 3 line trooper squads, I can almost guarantee (using my magnificent powers of theoryhammer ) that the line squads will go ignored due to the other smaller squads having a higher consistency of AT weapons. this means krak grenades might actually become viable with them if used with the smaller 'one shot wonder' diversion type squads (command/special weapon).

so I think deepstriking sounds to me like my answer for going against Armored Company, now, what if deepstriking is taken away, how do we get into the side arc now?

Chimerae are out, I can't deepstrike a squad with a transport, so that won't work.

Making all squad sergeants veterans with a meltabomb seems good - also making sure every squad has a gun which can drop a tank.

So meltaguns and plasma guns in every squad. Maaybe a grenade launcher, though in my opinion those are bordering on worthless against anything av11+ as the special unless the vet. sgt. has a plasma pistol, then perhaps a flamer as well as the grenade launcher for the possible special weapon.

alternatively, I could just take 'the krak grenade doctrine' and give all possible squads krak grenades.

which would you do?

vet sgt with meltabomb and an AT weapon for the squads special weapon

or

krak grenades


or

both!

if nothing else, all this brainstorming is bringing out alot of possible arrangements which can all be used together to form an army with a diverse arsenal of AT capabilities.

[Turtleboy(AWOL)]

madman864 said:

deep striking vets with 3 meltas

this sounds like a good one!

would you advise making it 10 veterans large with krak grenades/meltabomb? I'd imagine it would be chancy since
they're probably high on the enemies 'to kill' list.

how does this work when deepstriking isn't allowed? that'd be an argument for 'make it 10 strong' and even possibly 'include a heavy weapon for versatility' still perhaps with 3 meltaguns I wouldnt want these guys sitting and taking the heavy weapon shots vs. supporting the offensive.


another thing to think about: carapace armor. admittedly vs armored company it'll be next to worthless due to the amount of heavy bolters and worse that the army fields, but vs everyone else - for a balanced list - should I consider this one so that I can survive outside of cover?

[Turtleboy(AWOL)]

a thought about how to maximize the effectiveness of heavy weapon AT squads vs armor: light infantry doctrine. I'm planning on using it to open with shots to the side armor vs vehicles or at least position my troops in a way where it forces my opponent to expose his side armor that much earlier in the battle.

[The Refined Gentleman (M.I.A)]

2 heavy weapons 4 takin out tanks:
--missle launchers
--lascannons

[The Refined Gentleman (M.I.A)]

include lots (and i mean LOTS!!!) of these.

[Deleted]

If your playing against an armored company I have some really good advice. First you want to spread out your forces as much as possible. Make it hard for your opponent to wipe out an entire squad in one turn. Also not just spread the squads out but spread out accross the table even if this means moving out of cover.

Terrain Setup:
If your playing against armored company make sure that there isnt one open area in the middle of the board.

Units that can get the job done:
First I would not suggest heavy weapon platoons against armored company as they are 6 man squads.
Roughriders move as calvary and can be equiped with meltabombs. This is a viable option if you run them up behind terrain.
You could also think about taking allies perhaps, Grey Knight terminators which can always deep strike and can be equiped with psycannons giving you great rear shots on tanks and since they have a 2 up save you should do well.
You could also do a calidus assasin which gives you a flamer weapon that always does a d3 on the pen table against vehicles and secretly deploys on the table i.e. roll for reserves "wow, I now have 3 of your tanks shakened or stunned." This happened to an opponent of mine in a tournament. Faced an armored company with 2 small areas of cover and a wide open field. The calidus assassin saved me.

Deep strike is your best option but not your only one. However if your rolling the alpha gama omega mission lvls, then you have 4 out of 6 chance you can deepstrike and even better a chance for escalation. I would suggest doing that as well.

[Woz]

Lots of troop squads with las cannons (forget about ML's) that way your opponent will have to kill 9 men to take out each las cannon.

[knight (M.I.A)]

A widely spread formation with lots of troops. Screw the heavy weapons, just give them kraks and meltabobs to the Sgt.
And then you tactic is move, move, move and move as fast as you can. Try to use cover for your advantage and get close to the tanks. If you're close enough he can't shoot with the battlecannons anymore without risking to kill his own tanks.
Just make the squads as cheap as possible for that tactic. Some RRs with meltabombs would be also great, but are a little bit too expensive for smaller games.
And forget taking the Droptroop doctrine. It's just a wast of doctrine points.
Take things like COD and only move in COD. If you do so there is a good chance, that you lose the complete squad or nothing and always leave at least 6" between your squads.

[Deleted]

Lots of troops with close range anti tank may work but not in my opinion. The above method may work against non veteran players but, what happens when your opponent tank shocks you at 12" with the front armor. Your squads need to make a morale test or fall back and if you fail to destroy the tank you'll lose your melta bomb. With the number of tanks your opponent can take you could be taking several tank shock test's in one turn. Even with high leadership. Personally I do shoot at things close to me, with my battle tanks as long as I just target 6" away from me as the half damage will not damage the 14 armor. To take out tanks you want the deepstrikers and/or heavy weapons. Against an experienced player you wont stand a chance running up the field with guards man. Perhaps with a different army yes but not guard.

[knight (M.I.A)]

That tactic works and worked very well so far (ok I mostly play cityfights with my IG). ACs are one of the most difficult armies to play and most players do mistakes while playing them. It's a bit risky for me of course, but every game vs a AC is a great risk.

Tankshocks are a bit dangerous, but that's what your complete army has Ld 9 for. Tankshocks are still much better then a shootout vs tanks, that you'll lose anytime no matter how many heavy weapons you have.

You would shoot at targets that are just 6" away from you? That's brave, but foolish. Your shots can scatter 6" towards your direction and I don't think that you'd like to get the full strenght against your side or rear armor. Otherwise I'm trying to get as close as possible to the tanks and 6" could be just a full hit on one of your other tanks... so you just have the choice between shooting or tankshocking but not both unless you want to do the work for your opponent.

Deepstriking Troops would of course help a lot, but both of my IG armies don't have any of them as I despite changing doctrines just for one fight.
So my tactic will be the same any day. The few HWs I got will be standing somewhere in cover, while the other troops advance through cover (my light infantry regiment should do there even better then the other regiment, but they don't have COD ).
But I would never accept a challange on an open battlefield vs a tank company as there is no sense in playing that.

[Deleted]

Infiltrate ure army, that way, u set ureself already close to the deployed AC and then as knight says.... move it! Get out of that cover and engage those tanks with meltabombs and it does help to have a squad or two of anti-tank units to cover choke points, preferably deployd in terrain...just in case the Tank decides to turn away from the infiltrated guardsmen sudddenly popping out from the underbrush...force him to move into line of sight with those AT guns and lol hope u get first turn advantage