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Post by Turtleboy(AWOL) on Oct 19, 2006 1:38:18 GMT -5
what are some elements that contribute to getting infantry to pull its weight that combined could see an all infantry army succeed on the field with at least 50/50 success rate?
**edit**
oops can a mod move this thread to the infantry forum? I missed when I picked the forum I wanted to put this thread in (obviously) hehe sorry!
Your request is completed turtleboy....GoD
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Post by Turtleboy(AWOL) on Oct 19, 2006 3:44:01 GMT -5
thanks goddess. so I'll start: heavy weapon squads attached to the command platoon are great at giving an all infantry formation some long range punch as well as boosting medium range firefights due to the natural high str/low ap of their shots if they live that long.
***edit*** I made the above bold cuz I was gonna post 'take lots of heavy weapon teams' again, but figured I should read what's already been posted to see if I'd just be saying something over again..and lo' and behold it's the first thing in the thread ***/edit*** I like jungle fighters to hide my heavy weapon squads. worst case scenario is there's no trees so I'm stuck with regular cover saves but oh well, the squad infiltrates for free due to jungle fighters. best case scenario is I can put the heavy weapon squads deeper than 6" in a forest where they can't even be touched but can shoot out with no prob, infiltrating, and still, all for free. normally they just get an improved 4+ cover save in forests and last a lil longer than normal vs. enemy fire - for free. free doctrines rock. demo squads can totally stop impending assaults if you're reasonably lucky, especially if the enemy is piling out of a vehicle and your demo charge is within 12" of said dismounting squad. (move 6", throw charge 6", BOOM) this can be a bit risky but the possibility to wipe out a whole squad of terminators in one hit is pretty worth it.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2006 7:24:48 GMT -5
Are you counting rough riders as infantry? because if so i would recommend some of these. Demo charges are a must. Maybe have one squad that has a demo charge/flamer combo and another (if you have the points) with melta/demo combo. I'd suggest ratlins as these can prove quite annoying to your opponent. I noticed you mentioned jungle fighters and heavy weapons. You do know that jungle fighters can't take lascannons, just thought i'd point that out if you missed it. Maybe some vets as well.
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Post by Turtleboy(AWOL) on Oct 19, 2006 19:29:48 GMT -5
hmm true you can't take lascannons with jungle fighters but in all other ways it seems like a good option.
rough riders are a very good infantry option.
what about ogryns? are they worth their points?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2006 13:39:53 GMT -5
I'm still undecided about ogryns in a pure infantry list because although they have multiple wounds they will get insta-killed by any anti-tank stuff that the enemy takes. Maybe you could try them out and see how they fair. I will take them in my Catachan deathworld veterans list but thats only to add a little more character to the army.
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Post by Turtleboy(AWOL) on Oct 21, 2006 2:20:16 GMT -5
well, I switched back to standard issue cadian doctrines so I dont think I'll be experimenting with ogryns any time too soon. I'm pretty much settling with:
2x 25 man platoons w/ heavy weapons in the line squads a conscript platoon to reinforce my line where it gets assaulted 2x grenadier squads in chimerae for offensive moves 2x storm trooper squads for deepstriking and taking out enemy armor/artillery a full command platoon (3x hvy wpn squads and 2x demo charge spec wpn squads)
and that's my infantry setup for my 2k list. should do ok based on the playtesting I've done; the only aspect I'm unsure about is the 2x chimerae full of grenadiers making that offensive force (though they'll have a leman russ demolisher to escort them in the trademark "madman says 'you can't shoot my chimeras side armor hahaha' tactic" type of push.
for all those that don't know the signature madman owns face with his armor move it goes like this:
your left flank.......................................your right flank xxo
x=chimera o=leman russ
note you can advance the whole formation without the chimerae taking hits to their side armor at all.
I'm gonna use a leman russ demolisher for its heavier armor on the sides for the tank escort personally.
wow I'm totally rambling at this point.
at any rate, hopefully this infantry setup will work!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 21, 2006 11:24:58 GMT -5
Sounds like a very solid list, i like the idea of conscripts getting stuck into any assault that takes place.
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Post by Turtleboy(AWOL) on Oct 21, 2006 16:48:06 GMT -5
thanks, yeah I find conscripts are actually pretty good on the charge
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2006 7:22:40 GMT -5
I love conscripts purely because they just die so brilliantly when you don't need them and manage to stay alive when you do. Funny story, playing against my friends Tau, he uses identical taactics to mine, run in range and rapid fire, which can be very painful. Anyway he eradicated my carapaced platoons due to awful rolling, so I brought up my rear end conscripts and they absolutely ripped the Tau apart. Little bastards never did it again. I moved them out of my army though due to requiring more tanks
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2006 21:12:46 GMT -5
quick question turtleboy, when you say grenadier squads, what exact units are you refferring to man, just a little confused
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Post by Turtleboy(AWOL) on Oct 25, 2006 3:42:11 GMT -5
stormtroopers taken as troops via the doctrine grenadiers. when taken as such they can't deepstrike/infiltrate, but make great armored fist replacements (4+ armor, BS4, 2x special weapons and a power weapon too!)
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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2006 6:47:13 GMT -5
I don't like guard melee. Well, it's inevitable, but watching a dread carve my heavy weapons platoon into a million pieces is never fun. It's a lot better to rely on stardard guard with carapace, as although they are weak in that they can't shoot, the points do measure up. ie, with the grenadiers you are paying for carapaced BS 4 troops with hellguns, instead of carapaced BS 3 troops with lasguns. The points really measure up in big confrontations, as the points I would have spent on some next to useless AP 5 and a power weapon manifest in 10 more lasguns. Quantity, not quality when it comes to IG. Our men just don't measure up to Orks and Marines, or any race other than Tau in close, so why try and use out weak points? You'll do much more damage rapid firing lasguns than trying to feebly stab the combat oriented opponent with a bayonet with 1 S3 attack. It's always nice when IG come out on top in close combat, but it is a definite rarity.
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Post by Turtleboy(AWOL) on Oct 25, 2006 13:45:09 GMT -5
agreed that guard winning a melee is a rarity, but 5pts for a powerweapon is a bargain that shouldn't be passed on in my opinion (unless you know for absolute sure that it'll be worthless at least 90% of the time ). standard guard with carapace armor doctrine is a beautiful thing, but I steered away from it when I went with a bunch of small squads (like command, special weapon, heavy weapon type squads). if you go with an army that's really heavy on 10 man line squads then carapace armor can really be valuable, but if you've got alot of small squads then it just gets painful I wish they did it like warrior weapons and just said xpts per model.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 26, 2006 1:25:42 GMT -5
Yeah, that would have been most convenient. Unfortunately it is complicated, as complicated as guard can be Yeah I really like the idea of a small elite guard force of stormtroopers, then I cringe when I think of how much damage a few heavy bolters could do Bionics?
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Post by Turtleboy(AWOL) on Oct 26, 2006 2:04:27 GMT -5
20pts a unit is a heavy price to pay for a 6+ 'get back up' roll not to mention the fact it's mandatory for all guard infantry units (namely 5 man squads).
same drawbacks as carapace armor pointwise, I'd say it's even less useful than carapace armor though, but then again, I've never actually used it.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 26, 2006 2:31:42 GMT -5
The only time I have ever used it is fighting Tau, and I was trying it out, i'm a shocker for WYSIWYG lol. I need to start painting again, and I need my IG codex back from my friend, the bastard. Honestly I think the protection carapace (Lets abbreviate it to CP for now) far outwheighs the points. Think, almost every standard infantry armament has an AP of 5, so the added 50/50 survival rate against standard gunfire and the ability to return fire for longer and hold the enemy in place for longer giving my massive armour section time to pummel them more as well as as many lasguns as I can draw line of sight with tends to frighten my opponents more than it should. Although modelling on the extra armour with epoxy is just a pain, the 4+ is worth it IMHO Although, different strategies for different players.
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Post by Turtleboy(AWOL) on Oct 26, 2006 4:15:07 GMT -5
I concur, carapace armor is one of the most valuable assets in the guard codex. I used the carapace armor and renamed the doctrine "dirt huggers" explaining the 4+ armor save by saying that my troops were adept at hiding in potholes and mudpuddles, behind the one scraggly bush in the middle of no-man's land - anything that could be used for an advantage in survival they were adept at identifying and utilizing to its max. thus their armor save was 4+ while leaving me happy I didnt have to paint a whole new army to make the change
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Post by Deleted on Oct 26, 2006 4:22:29 GMT -5
That's good, I like it! What I like more is how my guard are gonna look! When I get my first one done tomorrow i'll post up a pic see what you guys think of the scheme. No conversion work as of yet however! There's just something sexy about a line of Infantry ready to be massacred, or maybe i've been playing Chaos for too long.
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Post by Turtleboy(AWOL) on Oct 26, 2006 17:31:35 GMT -5
hah. I see it left you with a lasting scar..poor synyster. nah, that can actually be an advantage as it's often doing the exact opposite of what one would consider 'sane' that allows us to win in battle. when you'd think it would be prudent to run, sometimes charging is the correct answer (reminds me of the old black templars a bit)
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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2006 6:58:31 GMT -5
Hah, the good old Templars. The guy that got me into 'hammer played the Templars, jesus he was a bastard. He said a Land Raider had 3 wounds, and I had no chance of destroying it as I was playing Dark Eldar and the strongest gun I had was S5 Splinter Cannon, oh and the Lascannon Templar he gave me... Which was in its own squad... On its own... And the Raider blasted him apart in the first turn... Good times? Anyway, I have rarely found that hitting an enemy with bayonets works. Ok, your turn, you charge, two attacks a model, shred a couple of enemies, woohoo. Problem, the enemy is still alive, they hit back, average for a tooled up assault squad is an entire squad per turn . No, I save the combat for my Rough Riders, i'll do an article on converting them with Cadians soon, being Marine bikes with some cut up legs (crammed full of epoxy putty ). Basically it equates to 5 Rough Riders on the charge, 15 S5 Power Weapon attacks can give even some nasty Terminators a surprise. Whats more they can charge 24", ie move 12" charge 12", so when your enemies come within Lasgun range you can leave a squad for the RRs and shred them. Its fantastic fun seeing the look on your opponents face when he gets run through by the RRs in my old IG army, 5 Dark Elf Dark Riders! Crossbows and all! Summed up the idea is not to run in with your IG when you could be making the most of your HWs and SWs, not to mention rapid firing lasguns. My frontline squads have a Heavy Bolter and a Plasma Gun in each, so that equates from 10 Guard into 16 S3 shots, plus 3 S5 AP 4 shots, as well as the rapid firing plasma on the condition that the guardsmen isn't dead due to his own incompetence as of yet. Remember, rapid firing lasguns add up. Leave the assault to when there's 3 Marines still running forward and although Rapid Firing would finish them, a final charge would look heaps cooler and 20 S3 attacks would probably still do the job
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Post by Turtleboy(AWOL) on Nov 7, 2006 19:40:52 GMT -5
yep, roughriders rock, unfortunately us Cadian types don't get roughriders to those who can use them, it is, indeed, a huge advantage in stopping impending assaults
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Post by Deleted on Nov 10, 2006 4:34:11 GMT -5
Yeah, or creating your own assaults! By the way, didn't you only just hit 500 posts? You little sleeper! ;D
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Post by Turtleboy(AWOL) on Nov 10, 2006 5:03:58 GMT -5
hehe yeah *flexes warmaster rank* thanks for the gratses
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Post by Deleted on Nov 10, 2006 10:22:02 GMT -5
In the long run Storm troopers are cheaper than basic infantry when you see how much frag and krak gernades cost + the carapace armor. I think they become a 5 point model which is 1 point cheaper than the basic trooper!
I have a 1000 point army with 2 full platoons with vox caster and gernade launcher in each of the 10 squads the Command HQ has a master vox and 3 melta guns The 2 Jr Offer Squads have vox casters and 3 plasma guns in each. That is 115 models in a game. We play with missions so you have a 1 in 6 chance of a kill'em all kinda game. I will win the center point every time. People mock the IG Infantry but when you are rolling 8/1 dice your opponent WILL fail his armor saves from our "flashlights".
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Post by Turtleboy(AWOL) on Nov 10, 2006 15:11:09 GMT -5
I like grenadiers in combat patrols. allows you to take 1 cheap troop choice. then get to stuffing power units like fire support/AT squads into your list a conscript platoon is also nice for filling that 1 troop choice in combat patrols if you're vs an assaulty army.
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