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Post by Turtleboy(AWOL) on Feb 6, 2007 16:05:46 GMT -5
hey all. when I started with my IG army, I wanted to make an infantry company and specialize in using guard infantry to overcome my enemies with. this has proven to be a tall order to say the least, and now, 3 years later, I've reached a point where the bulk of my infantry is for the most part 'done.'
over time, I've faded back into the generic Cadian Shock Troops mould and I feel the time has come to completely redefine my army.
I would like to deviate from the standard Cadian doctrines and really give my infantry company a more unique feel. the men of B Co. have survived alot and I'd like to represent this by giving them a full setup of doctrines that specializes them as grizzled guardsmen who've proven they're survivors and are true light infantrymen.
here is a draft of their doctrines:
Sharpshooters Light Infantry Die Hards Cameleoline Carapace Armor
this makes my fully kitted line squads cost about 150pts and my command squads about 100-125pts.
with this doctrine setup, I would revert to a list that focused on my infantry and my vehicles would pretty much totally be left at home.
kitting out my infantry to the max means that my quantity would be reduced and my quality would be increased. before you totally dismiss this doctrine setup, consider that a small model count is something I actually kinda want. I'm pretty burnt out about moving a zillion models and vehicles, while easy to move, just kinda move away from the theme of what I wanted to do with my army in the beginning, when I created it.
so, what do you all think of my 'space marine guardsmen' doctrine setup? I know it's a tough sell, and guardsmen being outnumbered is just bad, but I really want my army to have the feel of a grizzled band of survivors who have developed a ton of skills making them basically the epitome of what an imperial guard light infantryman is.
also, to explain the doctrines a bit, the carapace armor and cameleoline is representative of a relic that the company recovered on one of the worlds which they campaigned on that imparts all the guardsmen of the company a limited form of ESP so that they can sense their own impending death and attempt to avoid it (4+ armor save, +1 to cover saves). I'll represent this by giving my commander some cool gear like a refractor field and make the standard a regimental standard to represent the fervent nature with which the men of the company defend the commander who holds the relic.
SO! there's this way which I can take my army - go back to its roots, which I have to say, actually excites me. I have alot of extra painted infantry which would allow me to tailor my squads to have a real light infantry feel (drop heavy weapons from the squads that infiltrate)
OR...
I can go with a conventional army and include vehicles and have standard issue quantity over quality infantry.
if I did this, I would likely go with these doctrines:
Iron Discipline Die Hards Kasrkin Squads Sharpshooters Cameleoline
this would keep a bit of that elite feel in my line squads, and give me access to kasrkin squads to use as my offensive force.
anyhow, thoughts/recommendations on doctrine selection for my army? I promise I'll be totally open minded.
thanks in advance.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2007 17:56:32 GMT -5
I think you should take B. Co. back to its roots with the all infantry feel. I like very much how youve added in the fluff to expalin the armor saves of a Light Infantry unit so as to have 4+ armor saves normally, without actually toting around the bulky armor. I wanted the same sort of feel in my army, but I also have a lust for Armour, and had to have a large number of tanks, and the easiest way to have quality infantry with a mass of tanks and still fit it in the points costs of battles was to make everyone stormtroopers. But back on topic, I really enough how you plan to make your "Light Infantry" unit into an amazing, veteran fighting force of Infantry.
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Post by lordcastellenjon on Feb 6, 2007 18:02:28 GMT -5
Well I based my army on the modern army Heavy infantry supporting tanks and heavy gun emplacements. This gave me some very defensive standards.
Then for there back ground I decided to base them from a system known as 'the lost key to Cheshire'.
The story of the regiment is this. 'The lost key to Cheshire' is located extremely close to Terra and benefited from support from the local battle fleets as such. However when a splinter fleet of chaos broke threw the local defensives and was detected heading to the system a recruitment number was ordered and the 1st regiment of the key holders was born. The lord of the planet was well connected and succeeded in getting hold of 2 mighty demolisher tanks for the regiment. The Emporium lawfully supplied them with 6 HW's as well as there las weapons and the planets master crafters, crafted master weapons for the officers of the force.
then when the chaos broke threw they were first met by the fleet of the Emperor then when some of there landing craft managed to land on the planet in a attempt to attack the capital they were met by the skill full shot and swordsmen ship of the newly formed regiment. For although the regiment was young every boy on the planet was thought how to shoot like a true marksmen from an early age.
For many months chaos battered and shelled the city in a fierce stand off with the regiment entrenched at its border. Then on the 5 month of the siege they attempted a storm but did my men falter! No they stood fast against the horde of filth with faith in there Emperor and in the man next to them they hold firm against the chaos that attacked them and caste them down on the fields that are now named after the only notable casualty of that conflict 'planes of despair'. After the amount of tinted blood that had been spilled on the ground it was said that even the mighty ultramarines 3rd company was impressed at the sight.
(lol that was my first battle against some one at my local GW we decided that we will roll a d6 and the number that was shown will represent the number of months the siege had been held for. This in ended up giving me a moral penalty of -2 numbers (one two and three gave no penalty) but I got a 5 so that was -2)
The doctrines I based my force on were as follows:- Storm trooper squads Special weapon squads Grenadiers Sharpshooters Carapace armor.
Not sure if this helps you but I figured it may help to give you my past experience
I found that after my tanks were pinned by a chaos squad with heavy AT weapons I was forced to move up a lot of infantry weight to displace them the carapace was useful in covering them while the sharpshooter helped in my shooting them up one shot can make the difference with guards Las Guns.
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Post by knight (M.I.A) on Feb 7, 2007 0:36:51 GMT -5
Carapcae may not be combined with Light Infantry and/or Jungelfighters doctrines. For constructive critics I'll think about after I get back from uni...
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Post by Turtleboy(AWOL) on Feb 7, 2007 4:14:28 GMT -5
yeah I realized that when I was talking with my traitor guard buddy tonight heh. 3 cheers for not checking doctrine restrictions before making a post, no? so really I don't want my men out in the open without carapace armor so in all honesty I'd likely drop light infantry before dropping carapace armor - this pretty much makes my second doctrine lineup look sexier to me, and it'd bring some vehicles to the list (which have been aquired over past campaigns).
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Post by majorjav on Feb 7, 2007 11:42:13 GMT -5
If you want a veteran army, try these: veterans, grenadiers, sharpshooters, carapace armour, chem inhalers. you will get tough guys with carapace and chem inhalers, your guys will not retreat!! Imagine 3 vet squads, with carapace infiltrating their 3 SW and 1 HW....Hmmm nice!! Hope that can help you turtle
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Post by Turtleboy(AWOL) on Feb 7, 2007 22:08:40 GMT -5
very nice majorjav.
I finally got a day to myself today. It was nice to have a bit of time to pull out the ol' codex and take my time putting together something I feel is a 'potent' combo of doctrines. anyway, here they are, let me know what you guys think.
Kasrkin Squads - this'll give me 2 full size squads of infiltrating 'offensive' troops.
Sharpshooters - this is meant to add a veteran marksman feel and also retain the character of a classic cadian army.
Determined Survivors (As Chem-Inhalers) - this represents the veteran nature of my guardsmens morale; their never say die attitude, and how they know not to break and run under fire.
Hard Targets (As Cameleoline) - survival on the front lines means developing the skills to be a hard target to hit when in cover; this doctrine represents that aspect of a veteran guard company.
Close Order Drill - the men of B Co. know that survival often takes more than being able to shoot, so they train their hand to hand talents
I'm optimistic about this doctrine setup because it allows for the use of vehicles if I want to include them but retains a true veteran infantry feel.
+30pts/squad is expensive, so I'm wondering if these doctrines are gonna pan out. part of my optimism is based around the fact that each doctrine addresses a separate aspect of an infantry capability. morale, shooting, assault, and defense are all buffed, so the doctrines really are achieving alot without any 'overlap' in what the doctrines do if that makes sense.
anyhow, what do you all think?
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Post by fatuous on Feb 8, 2007 11:45:35 GMT -5
Looks quite cool . When I wanted to try a more hard core GI I went for Hardened Fighters Die Hards Iron Discipline Carapace Armour Leaves 1 left to tailor to what you want. I took preists for counter attacks but Sharpshooters would work just as well. It does make them very expensive, about 50 points per unit, but they are a lot tougher to kill. Heroic officer, backed up by a commissar with increased WS can be a nasty suprise to an enemy. You get less troops, so some vehicle support helps.
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Post by Turtleboy(AWOL) on Feb 8, 2007 13:10:43 GMT -5
the thing about die hards and iron discipline is that you get what equates to roughly both of those doctrines for 1 doctrine point in chem-inhalers. while it's not exactly the same, for the most part it is (no negative morale modifiers). it costs a few points more, but an extra doctrine point is not to be undervalued in my book.
I've never used hardened fighters before but I've heard it's a good one. I think if I fit hardened fighters into my doctrine list, it'd replace close order drill, but the more I think about it, the more it seems close order drill and hardened fighters are like that old saying '1+1=3.'
perhaps I could drop another doctrine, but it'd assuredly hurt at that point.
also, +45pts/squad is getting to the painful level as far as how much extra per squad I'm shelling out just for 'veteran skills.' +30pts/squad I can far more easily deal with, but +45pts is tough. this is maybe another thought for replacing something other than close order drill if I add hardened fighters.
there is no doubt at all that having ws4 would be great; I'd love to be able to have that kind of survivability in melee, especially with a large infantry contingent - it would be quite powerful!
ultimately, I think if I wanted to add hardened fighters, I'd drop sharpshooters, and I can't really get that to sit right what with my army coming from Cadia.
taking hardened fighters would really make my army a melee army, what with close order drill and determined survivors (chem inhalers).
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Post by Turtleboy(AWOL) on Feb 8, 2007 13:24:04 GMT -5
When I wanted to try a more hard core GI I went for Hardened Fighters Die Hards Iron Discipline Carapace Armour Leaves 1 left to tailor to what you want. I took preists for counter attacks but Sharpshooters would work just as well. what if you took: hardened fighters chem inhalers carapace armor close order drill priests that'd be sick in melee!
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Post by fatuous on Feb 9, 2007 8:56:41 GMT -5
Hmmmm yeah that would be pretty evil lol, get a preist with evisarator anf Commissar with a power fist, and not mcu would survive a counter attack from them . I tried close order drill, but didn't really get on with it. Packing them in base to base, just got em flamered to death. Depends on ur enemy I guess. It's effectively free tho, so can't really complain lol. I also found that +1 Ini still wasn't enough to make a difference against most of the dedicated CC units (Eldar, Nids, etc..). Having the option is always usful tho, so if I have any spare doctrine points (rare) then I go for either drop troops or close order drill, may as well have the option. I haven't ever tried chem inhalers, I like the sound of em, but can't remember exactly what it does atm.
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Post by Turtleboy(AWOL) on Feb 9, 2007 15:35:31 GMT -5
close order drill is something you should never use unless you're locked in melee combat in my opinion.
chem inhalers is basically die hards and iron discipline in one - you never take negative modifiers to your morale. this means if you have a line squad with a veteran sergeant in close order drill formation in melee with only like 2 guys left, vs a squad of 10, his morale is 9. not like....3 which means he's almost sure to hold the line for that extra round and allow you to position for a devastating rapid fire response to the squad finally being wiped.
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Post by Turtleboy(AWOL) on Feb 10, 2007 3:19:10 GMT -5
Kasrkin Squads - this'll give me 2 full size squads of infiltrating 'offensive' troops. Sharpshooters - this is meant to add a veteran marksman feel and also retain the character of a classic cadian army. Determined Survivors (As Chem-Inhalers) - this represents the veteran nature of my guardsmens morale; their never say die attitude, and how they know not to break and run under fire. Hard Targets (As Cameleoline) - survival on the front lines means developing the skills to be a hard target to hit when in cover; this doctrine represents that aspect of a veteran guard company. Close Order Drill - the men of B Co. know that survival often takes more than being able to shoot, so they train their hand to hand talents well, I played a small battle with my infantry using this doctrine setup and let me tell you, I got destroyed! honestly, I didn't have enough points to get beyond my basic 2 troops and an hq squad (though I had a 5 man kasrkin squad and that finished off my 750pt list). I played vs nids and they just walked right over me. I didn't have the firepower to stop them at range or the bodies needed to stop them in hand to hand. it was messy and one sided. a few observations about the doctrines however: the storm troopers were actually the weak link. infiltrating them was nice, they got right to it and earned their points back in the first round basically. the bad side is that they didn't benefit from any of the doctrines so were really pretty sad in comparison to the basic infantry which is kinda reverse of how it should be. the kasrkins broke when they got mauled in melee, the regular guardsmen didnt. the regular guardsmen made their buffed cover saves and the kasrkins who could have had an amazing cover save for occupying some ruins had an average cover save because they didn't get the +1 to cover saves buff. the kasrkins did well with shooting but that's just where they shine. all in all I felt like the infantry did well, but the kasrkins were just totally outshined by the expensive basic guardsmen. beyond that I couldn't field enough models due to +30pts/squad in doctrines - it really was painful. advice? I really like the doctrines, but they're killin me due to sapping my points. part of enjoying 40k is enjoying being able to make a healthy amount of 'successes' on your dice rolls and 5+ cover save, 5+ to wound - enough of that and it just gets depressing rolling a ton of dice for a few successes in the end...all the time. that's why I was enjoying the sharpshooters and hard targets (cameleoline) doctrines. I'm afraid I can't afford those luxuries however. the unreal morale bonuses were great from the determined survivors (chem inhalers) too - so sweet.
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Post by fatuous on Feb 12, 2007 8:45:36 GMT -5
Ouch, that does sound pretty painful. I noticed the Storm Troopers aren’t really worth it once u start kitting up ur normal infantry squads. 1 possible solution is to try using Vets instead, as they can up buffed by all the doctrines, where as the STs can’t. If you can try to squeeze in carapace (very expensive) then they are almost identical to ST, stat wise any way.
You may want to ditch the ST (frees up a doctrine too). Using expensive doctrines in small games can be counter productive. And against Nids, I’d prob just focus on blasting the hell out of them.
Maybe try something like Sharp shooters, hard targets (or carapace), close order drill, die hards and Iron Discipline. I can see what you mean about chem. Inhalers kinda covering both ID and die hards, but it is cheaper (5 points per squad and 5 per officer u give it to, rather than 10 points per squad) and you can regroup squads below half strength. And switch the STs to vets.
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Post by Turtleboy(AWOL) on Feb 12, 2007 15:07:50 GMT -5
I pretty much decided to just go back to the cadian doctrines since they're so cheap and I have a conscript platoon, kasrkin squads, grenadier squads and a demo charge in a special weapon squad already. gonna pick up 2-3 leman russes and just start layin' down some pie plates.
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Post by fatuous on Feb 13, 2007 10:47:03 GMT -5
Would be worth just dropping all the dcotrines sometime and see how much extra stuff you can fit into an army. I guess if you are using cheap doctrines and paying mostly for restircted troops then it isn't all that point heavy any way.
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Post by Turtleboy(AWOL) on Feb 13, 2007 17:25:10 GMT -5
yeah but sharpshooters is really nice with 3 heavy weapon squads
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