Ferrum
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Post by Ferrum on Jan 1, 2011 5:59:28 GMT -5
Okay so here's my attempt at a 2000 point aerial cavalry list!
Hq Company command squad 135 points Power fist Carapace armor Vox caster 3X plasma guns
Three priests at 180 points
Troops Veteran squad 150 x3 Shotguns Power fist Grenadier specialty (Carapace armor) Priest 3 meltas Vox
Vet squad 175 X3 Lasguns Grenadiers 3 plasmas P fist Vox
Fast attack 6 Valkyries at 140 each Two rocket pods Door guns
That's it. It totals to 2140...if I drop the priests it'll work fine, I only have them because shotgun vets assaulting with reroll hits is really scary, but I can do without if it means I get all my valkyries in. A couple questions. Firstly is it worth it to get a platoon instead of a vet squad or two? Secondly do I need to put my CCS in a valkyrie as well? It seems like it'd help a lot but I don't have the points now, where can I trim it off?
Thanks for all your help!
As a side note I think I'll be expanding this army to 2500 points, however I think that 2000 points is a good place to start and to figure putrid basics of the list.
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Post by Kommissar Orren on Jan 1, 2011 8:13:41 GMT -5
I think you could drop the priest, the powerfists, and 2 MRPs. (multiple rocket pods) That would leave you with... enough. I forgot the math I did a minute ago, as I have not slept. Or the priests, the powerfists, and all the door guns. I personally never really used door guns.
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Post by Paradill on Jan 1, 2011 11:24:48 GMT -5
I'd definitely drop the power fist from the plasma vets. I know it's tempting to take because of the extra insurance, but if you're spending all those points ensuring that the three melta vet squads have a chance in CC then hopefully your plasma vets wont need to. I wouldn't have tried to have three units with so many points and extra close combat abilities locked up in them personally, but it may well work, taking your opponent off guard being charged by your guys. Equally, I think maybe the demolitions doctrine on at least one of the melta squads could come in handy in those tight games where a bit of extra "umph" is needed. Again, no-one can really tell you how your list will play, just offer some advice from an external view point. Before investing a lot of money in anything, I would recommend play testing it first, just use bits of paper torn with squad markings written/drawn on and see how well they play. Hope this helps
Paradill..
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Ferrum
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Post by Ferrum on Jan 1, 2011 13:29:03 GMT -5
Yeah I was thinking about dropping the power fists because that squad should only be going supporting fire anyways. I only really took the door gunners because they look so cool! But I can see why you wouldn't take them, one or two heavy bolted bursts a turn isn't anywhere near as good as MRPs or even the multi laser.
I'm reluctant to drop all of the priests, because I think they'll be really Important when it comes down to the bloody stuff. I also really want to keep the MRPs on all the Valkyries because the other options are just crap, and without the pods it's just a flying multilaser
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Post by Paradill on Jan 1, 2011 14:14:12 GMT -5
Surely that's like saying the chimera is a multi-laser on tracks? Transport capacity plays a vital role in keeping important units alive for long enough to do their jobs and then die horribly in a hail of bolter fire, mission accomplished, warm smatterings of blood and spittle across their satisfyingly smiling faces. Beautiful..
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Ferrum
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Post by Ferrum on Jan 1, 2011 15:55:18 GMT -5
What I meant was it's other armaments wouldn't be worth mentioning, I wasn't saying it's ability to transport a full squad wasnt usefull. The reason I want the MRPs is because they give my expensive transports an ability that my limited number of troops don't really have, which is horde destruction. The Valkyries are a large portion of my pouts allocation and I'd like to ensure they make their points back.
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Ferrum
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Post by Ferrum on Jan 1, 2011 17:04:02 GMT -5
Updated list Hq CCS 145 points Power fist 4 plasma Carapace
Troops 3 veteran squads at 145 Shotguns Power fist Melta x3 Grenadiers
3 veteran squads at 150 each Las guns Grenadiers Plasma x3 Vox caster
Fast attack 7 Valkyries with MRP at 130
The total is 1940 points 145 in Hq 885 in troops 910 in fast attack.
So with the remaining 60 points I could do a few things, 1 take a commissr or priest to bolster a squad. Take sergeant Bastonne to have an extra order and a tougher unit of vets, he'd go in a lasgun unit to make sure that all my lasgun squads could get First rank fire! Every turn. Or I could give my CCS a pair of body guards and a master of ordnance to give more wounds and a little more oomph in the shooting phase, for example, devastator squad in heavy cover, that's hard for my veterans to budge, but with the artillery barrage they'd probably be totally annihilated. Or I could give door guns to 6 Valkyries....meh
What do you think? And what should I do with the 60 points? I am currently leaning either towards bolstering my CCS or Bastonne
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Post by Paradill on Jan 1, 2011 17:47:33 GMT -5
I find it hard to justify Bastonne but I've never really considered an all vet list either. If you do use him let me know how it goes, success rate and usefulness etc.
Paradill
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Ferrum
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Post by Ferrum on Jan 1, 2011 18:18:30 GMT -5
He does seem a little pricey to me, but i think his true value is in a list like this where the number of orders i can give is greatly reduced. He also has an ap 3 pistol which is deent enough in of itself, and he seems like a decent fighter.
I can understand why an all vet list might be unapplealing, but i think they're useful because they are more efficient points wise (in my opinion) than mounting large platoons in valkyries. If it was legal to put two heavy weapons teams inside one valkyrie then i would think that platoons were more useful. would you mind sharing why you haven't considered it? i'm curious!
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Post by Paradill on Jan 2, 2011 4:05:40 GMT -5
It might be worth considering swapping out 1 of the Valks for a Vendetta for a bit more long ranged anti tank support. Can't remember the exact points cost but I'm fairly sure you'll have enough with some spare.
Paradill
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Ferrum
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Post by Ferrum on Jan 2, 2011 4:27:00 GMT -5
I'd have enough for the vendetta and the master of ordnance! I think that might be good because my CCS won't be dropping as close to enemy lines so the vendetta will be able to fire from range, that said it'll still have to move a lot to avoid dying, and as a result it'll lose some effectiveness. I'll have to playtest it and see! I'll also be testing out Bastonne because he seems like a cool character who'll add some dynamism to the army, I'll let you know as soon as I try him out Paradill!
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Post by Paradill on Jan 2, 2011 4:27:33 GMT -5
The main reason I haven't ever really considered an all vet list is two fold. First and formost it's because what got me started on guard was the idea of the relentless march of numberless boots, so the more infantry the better. Secondly, I faced an all vet mech list with my marines a couple of months ago and I found it much easier to tear apart than guard normally is, which kinda put me off the idea. In the right players hands though I'm sure it's very effective.
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Post by Julian Sharps on Jan 2, 2011 12:40:02 GMT -5
Actually, I would strongly suggest taking an Astropath because he increases your chances of getting your force on the table sooner rather than later.
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Ferrum
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Post by Ferrum on Jan 2, 2011 13:09:16 GMT -5
An astropath? That would make sense, i think I'll do that because s friend of mine told me that the Master of Ordnance is rather unreliable. @ Paradiill. Those are both good reasons to not use all veterans! Platoons make a lot more sense when using footsloggers or chimeras because of the much lower cost, but when I comes to air cav I think that veterans are the way to go. A platoon is just to large and unwieldly to be really useful mounted up in Valkyires (my opinion). I agree with you that the player makes the victory, not the list. Any army can win if you know how to play it well and have a good strategy.
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Post by fatuous on Jan 4, 2011 8:25:06 GMT -5
Forget the MOO, I really can not see u ever really using his shooting as the plasma are better getting in to rapid fire range. Astro would complement well.
Bastonne, I want to like, but he is too expensive IMO, rocking in at more than a CCS, so do not really think he adds much value.
I'd look in to swopping out a couple of valks for vendettas, with MRPs on the valks, they should be direct swop outs, and add a bit more punch for anti tank, but tbh, the vets as is, should be able to deal with it, but I'd add a little redundency there myself.
I would be very tempted to swop out either a melta or plasma squad for flamers, to add a little more anti horde, but I guess the valks could prob deal with that, but could complement the vendettas......
I'd also have a think about dropping 1 vet squad and add in a CCS with meltas to take on suicide jobs, they can not score, and can either pack more melta, or they can take a medic instead (which is prob what I would do, 3 melta and a medic). they can drop down, give orders to them selves, twin link or reroll cover saves, and prob put a medic back on the other CCS too.
Body guards are a good option too I think, add a bit more wieght to your CCS, medic, pace, and some bodyguards and an astro would all be good additions.
Second the play testing before you buy tho. And maybe drop Rolling Thunder an IM as thikn he is the expert on this....
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Ferrum
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Post by Ferrum on Jan 4, 2011 11:35:32 GMT -5
All good points! My I'm considering magnestizing a few of the Valkyries to be interchangeable with Vendettas for the very reason you mention here, especially since it costs me more in points to change them. The CCS suicide is a good idea but it doesn't really fit in with my fluff, I don't think an officer would do something like that unless he absolutely had to buts that's just my opinion. Having flamers could really help! They're dirt cheap too which would be nice. I with the points I'd save there I could spend them on things like power fists to keep my squads alive in cc. I'll also magnetize a squad of veterans to be flamer/melta I have a question on the vendettas though, try seem like they'd be targeted immediately since two twin linked lascannons that fly is pretty scary, and many of my opponents run heavy armor that could probably snipe a vendetta moving at fring speed no problem. The question is, are vendettas worth it due to lower survivability? They cannot move fast enough to gain the vital bonus for speed and although they are powerful they could very likely just be shot down. What's your experience with this? I also find that people really underestimate the Valkyrie's armament and it puts the hurt in pretty well after they ignore it. I'm not sure the same is true for vendettas.
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Post by Paradill on Jan 4, 2011 13:04:35 GMT -5
With the vendetta, hell with any unit, the chances of it surviving all battles or even any battle is not good, It's what it manages to do while it's alive that counts. As long as your vendetta(s) manages to kill its target(s) then any other amount of alive time is a bonus. It will draw a lot of fire, I know I'd want it down and out, but that could be it's purpose, fly it a t a huge piece of armour, drawing away all fire from the rest of your army, if it manages to kill the target, brilliant, if not, your plasma vets and meltavets are now in prime position to land a crushing blow. Paradill
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Ferrum
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Post by Ferrum on Jan 4, 2011 17:02:54 GMT -5
Yeah I agree with you that the power ofthe Vendetta is manifested in a single blaze of glory. It's got more than enough firepower to seriously damage any armored unit and eve destroy most of them, plus due to it's speed it can outmaneuver almost anything (except a hydra ). I think ill take at least one bs maybe even two just for the hell of it and to kick the crap out of an enemy's armor. Would it make sense to screen them with other Valkyries to either A. Shield them. Or B. Prevent them from even being seen until it's far too late. Of course the second use would only work against a novice or a very distracted opponent but could buy them some time to reach they're target or even snipe without having to risk themselves.
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Post by Paradill on Jan 5, 2011 6:26:48 GMT -5
In your current list it could be quite dangerous to use your troop's transports as a shield. I recon you'd need at least two valkyrie's to shield each vendetta and that could quickly amount to a good quarter of your points cost hitting the ground in flames just to let you get a shot with the vendetta's. Depending on your opponent, if they have a lot of armour then I would split your vendetta's and move up the flanks, as soon as possible launch every lascannon beam possible at them. At the best they'll kill their targets and move on to harass the rest of his force, at worst, the enemy will be so petrified he will launch everything he has at them and leave your melta gunners a nice hole to blow him up through. If they are the kind of player who has light transports, loves assault but has that annoyingly heavy armoured vehicle which can crush your valkyries, then I might consider shielding them, even if your transports go down then your men have a decent chance of surviving, hunkering down and shooting the hell out of anything that comes close. On the whole, I wouldn't like to unnecessarily put my men in danger if I was concentrating that amount of points in them. Yes they're going to die but I'd prefer to give them the best shot of death with success as possible. I guess that's just me though As with all things, play test it and let me know how it goes. Paradill
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Ferrum
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Post by Ferrum on Jan 5, 2011 10:42:27 GMT -5
Agreed, my regiment isnt the kind to waste such war machines as Valkyries either! Your point has merit as well due to the fact that even the MRP and a multilaser can devastate a unit of marines, and two Valkyries unloading upon a target can really put the pain on, if I roll well for the template it could be like 40 hits on his twenty man squads. I also think that Valkyries would be a good unit in my army to hunt bikers with, the template could hits many of them and it wouldn't be a waste of a high powered shot. Ideally to kill bikers I'd like a colossus, no cover saves for flat out and S6 hits! Yay! Then again my plasma vets could just cut them apart also... I think I'd shield my vendettas in a situation where their same armament or more than it would be fired at them (I.e land raiders) But if there's no serious tanks aroundthey can run freeeeeee!
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Post by Paradill on Jan 5, 2011 11:24:45 GMT -5
Yeah, Land Raiders where pretty much what I was thinking of (going from your heretic hurt thread), I'd kill the bikers with plasma gunners purely to watch his face when he realised his plan had fallen apart so quickly. LRBT blasts would work well too.
Paradill
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Ferrum
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Post by Ferrum on Jan 5, 2011 13:05:38 GMT -5
Yes quite, a LRBT would crush his dreams very well. Bikers will also make a nice addition to the kill honors of whichever unit annihilates them. However I'm positive that I cannot underestimate them, they've got the potential to really muck up my plans if they take meltas and a powerfist...but it is refreshing to see a unit like them in a chaos army, since they often dont contain any fast attack at all. This is going to be a weird regiment...exclusively airborne infantry with a heavy armor element! It's gonna kick butt.
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Post by Paradill on Jan 5, 2011 13:11:18 GMT -5
I never leave home without my bikes! They're extremely effective (mostly because, as you said, people under estimate them). I think your regiment will do fine, maybe make the heavy armour the remnants of a different regiment attached to your highlanders due to battle losses? Adds that bit of fluff to keep it in line with current lore.
Paradill
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Ferrum
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Post by Ferrum on Jan 5, 2011 15:33:47 GMT -5
Yeah that sounds like it'd work pretty well! I think I'll make up another regiment to supply the tanks because none of the stock regiments really appeal that much to me. I think I'll have them be a regiment that contrasts heavily with the highlanders, sort of like the mordians. Such a amalgam has a lot of potential for fluff and good narrative that will deepen the story.
I think I'll call them the perosians. The 27th Perosian armored.
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Post by Julian Sharps on Jan 6, 2011 13:15:17 GMT -5
There's really nothing keeping you from having an armored regiment from the same planet. The Corvis Mobile Infantry, for example, are actually quite diverse in their makeup (Airborne, Armored, Mechanized, Recon, Engineering, Artillery and Super-heavy variants of everything except Recon and Engineering), but they are all elite heavy infantry with substantial armored support (even Recon uses a lot of Sentinels and spotter Chimeras for distant ordnance strikes).
I agree with you about the Mordians. Every one of them is a pain in the ass as far as the Corvis are concerned; too stuck up on discipline and formality when in their point of view it's not all that important on the battlefield compared to skill and determination. On the other hand, Mordians can't stand the Corvis either, seeing them as drunken, cocky and insubordinate scum who have no respect for the chain of command and military doctrine. As can be expected, more than one mess hall fight has broken out because these two groups happened to be seated next to each other and they had a disagreement (but it rarely gets messier than the occasional broken bone. No one's been killed yet in any of these mess hall brawls). The battlefield is another matter entirely, as they leave their grievances behind at base camp until the fighting is over.
That said, an army of Mordian models would look nothing short of fantastic on the tabletop.
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