|
Post by Comrade on Jun 17, 2013 13:33:09 GMT -5
Ok, so I've been playing IG since 3rd edition, and all I've ever heard is how bad the GL is. I however have not found it to be so... horrible. Is it great? No. Powerful? No. Useful? Yes. Cheap? Yes. Maybe I'm from a different generation of IG player who believes in cheapness above everything, but something that can throw out a S6 shot, or a small blast S3 is not bad for 5 pts. I build my army around my specialized units (ie: LRMBTs, drop Stormtroopers w/melta) I combine that with 2 CCS w/ MoO. The GL has proven at least in my neck of the woods, to be useful in the utility aspect with platoons. I have things that can take out heavy armor (Stormtroopers), I have things that take out hordes/Hvy Infantry (LRMBTs), I have anti Light infantry (Guardsmen) And here is where the GL comes into play: For 5 pts per squad you can: - Shoot at light armor (transports, AV 10/11/12) if there are no infantry to target, plus you dont have to target these with your STs, or LRMBTs
- if there are infantry to target, you can fire a small blast that could hit more then 2 models, without having to use your BS to hit
- You can maneuver you S6 shot for a better hit location since its an assault weapon
- Instant death T3 Characters
- Increase threat potential against Monstrous Creatures
I've just never understood the dislike of the lowly GL, its definitely not a specialized weapon per se, but its definitely is a threat multiplier and it makes your platoons a more all around threat and more able to support your specialized units, while also allowing to have decent power, at low points for a 24" Assault weapon.
Would I give Vets or SWS GLs? No, they should be specialized, but Platoons, at least for my set up, its makes them a good General Infantry unit.
Just my opinion on it however, Comrade
|
|
|
Post by treadiculous on Jun 17, 2013 18:28:55 GMT -5
I share your sentiments, I love the lowly grenade launcher.
I wonder what races / armies you play against - I have found this makes a big difference to the GL's effectiveness.
|
|
|
Post by WestRider on Jun 17, 2013 20:28:16 GMT -5
There was a recent post demonstrating that none of the Special Weapons actually increase your kill potential significantly on a Point for Point basis against most Infantry (except in rare occasions, the Flamer). You're better off just buying more dudes and using FRFSRF.
And the Grenade Launcher does the worst job of broadening the range of targets that you're dangerous to. It only takes your threat range against Vehicles up to AV12, while the Plasmagun takes it up to AV13, does a far better job of it at close range, and adds threat to 2+ Armour Saves as well. Easily worth the less than 20% increase in Total Unit Cost.
|
|
|
Post by Comrade on Jun 17, 2013 22:43:48 GMT -5
I play against: SM (and variants) CSM, some IG, and sometimes tyranids.
I like plasma... but not in my combined platoons. Its in everything else from CCS, PCS, SWS
GLs supplement the Anti light infantry role that (my) platoons have, and if I happen to face mechanized, well the GLs help me pop some transports.
while in frag mode it is equal to, or more then doubles the kill potential of a another model with a lasgun, o course there is also a chance it is potentially worse, but if frag spread can hit 2-3 models its doubling, not to mention when compared with lasguns without FRF, its even more effective, then you throw in the 24" range.
|
|
|
Post by WestRider on Jun 18, 2013 12:03:10 GMT -5
So yes, when you use your lasguns poorly (They have 24" Range, too), and your opponent clumps up for your Blasts, it's better. A weapon that is only better when your Opponent screws up is not a better weapon.
And yes, they can theoretically do something to Transports. In practice, they're so bad at it that it's really not worthwhile. 10 Points spent on one Autocannon will do you far better here than 10 Points spent on 2 Grenade Launchers.
|
|
|
Post by Comrade on Jun 18, 2013 19:44:10 GMT -5
So yes, when you use your lasguns poorly (They have 24" Range, too), and your opponent clumps up for your Blasts, it's better. A weapon that is only better when your Opponent screws up is not a better weapon. And yes, they can theoretically do something to Transports. In practice, they're so bad at it that it's really not worthwhile. 10 Points spent on one Autocannon will do you far better here than 10 Points spent on 2 Grenade Launchers. No, I'm saying, if my math is correct, that only at the lowest possible hits per frag round is the GL less superior then a FRF lasgun, at 2 hits its better, and at 3 hits its double the effect, and thats at FRF at 12", at 24" it is equal to the FRF lasgun at 1 hit, double effective at 2 hits, and 3 times the effect at 3 hits. Plus it has the ability to fire a S6 shot (which is underwhelming compared to lasguns at anything less then T5) Autocannons are great, if your stationary, a mobile platoon that moves every turn can at a measly 5 points bring a S6 weapon that ot can fire at 24" a turn, it has a threat potential of 42" on the first turn (12" deployment, 6" move, 24" range)
|
|
|
Post by WestRider on Jun 18, 2013 21:49:52 GMT -5
Yes, there is a problem with your math: You should double all your Lasgun numbers. You're comparing a 10 Point Model (5 point Guardsman with a 5 Point Grenade Launcher) to a 5 Point Model (one Guardsman with Lasgun). Of course that's going to do more damage.
I'd also note that (barring Exploded Transports and Deep Strikers who chose to Shoot) I can't remember the last time an opponent crowded up closely enough that I was able to get 3 Hits off a Small Blast. Once again, bad tactics on your Opponent's part are not the same as good tactics on your own.
On the comparison with Autocannon: 1) By that measure, the Autocannon has a threat range of 60". Properly deployed, there's basically nowhere on the board an Autocannon can't reach out to. 2) You're not paying 5 Points for that. You're paying 55 Points for each of those Grenade Launchers. For 65 Points (an extra 18% investment), you could get a Plasmagun, which will do at least 33% better against any Vehicle target. Much better return on investment there.
That last is really the key point. You have to look at total Unit Cost, not just Upgrade Cost. Each Grenade Launcher included in a Platoon costs 55 Points, not 5. Each Plasmagun costs 65 Points, not 15. If you could get 3 times as many Grenade Launchers as Plasmaguns for a given amount of Points, then yeah, there would be a lot of situations where they were worthwhile. But in actual practice, you get a little less than 6 Grenade Launchers for every 5 Plasmaguns. And at 6:5, they just don't hold up.
|
|
|
Post by Comrade on Jun 18, 2013 22:05:51 GMT -5
1)And I'm also pointing out that the GL can usually make up for the 5 points spent on it by being comparable to having another soldier in the squad with wound potential, especially at 24" or when FRF has not been ordered due to the PCS being targeted, which does happen.
2)Grenade launchers scatter, there is a chance that it will hit more then one even with the opponent maintain a 2" margin between all his soldiers, all the time, which is unlikely in a dense terrain table
3)I'm paying an extra 5 points to augment the anti infantry role of IG squads, what you are saying is that a guardsmen squad is only a special weapons slot and the other 9 troops are fluff? The GL augments the Anti infantry role of the squads lasguns while also giving it a chance of shooting light armor if no infantry is in sight or range.
4) Yes Auto cannons have a 60" threat range but they don't move, or if you do your removing 66% of its hit potential.
I think we may use our platoons in different manners. I use mine as dedicated anti light infantry squads, which can in a pinch threaten transports. Each of these platoons is supported by a LRMBT to assist with Heavy Infantry, plasma guns and melta guns are given to PCS squads to target really heavy infantry or vehicles. The GL adds to the anti infantry capabilities while a plasma gun or melta gun would give it a conflicting role, making alot of the lasguns useless.
|
|
|
Post by WestRider on Jun 18, 2013 22:36:32 GMT -5
1) Except that it's not, and the math bears that out. The only time the GL even equals another dude is at 13-24" when you haven't managed to use FRFSRF. In that case, it breaks even. Every other situation against Basic Infantry, it's worse.
2) So rare against a good player that it's not worth factoring in. Seriously, even the games against Orks on Terrain-dense Tables that I've played, I haven't gotten a shot like that against a good player other than the exceptions I mentioned.
3) As mentioned, Point-for-Point, the GL does not increase the Squad's effectiveness against Infantry, except under ideal conditions. It also provides only a minimal chance of doing anything to Units other than Infantry. You're also leaving your Melta and Plasma incredibly vulnerable by concentrating it in such small Units. I never even bother giving my PCSs guns anymore unless they're in a Vendetta, because they're so easy for my Opponents to kill off before they get a chance to shoot.
4) With a 60" Threat Range, why do they need to move? I've got Vet Squads, my Melta Platoon, and possibly Allied Grey Hunters to advance. There's rarely any reason for my Autocannon Units to move.
|
|
|
Post by Comrade on Jun 19, 2013 1:25:44 GMT -5
1) The only time that the lasgunner is better then the GL is in the least favorable manner in the most favorable manner for the Lasgun, at a moderate 2 hits per frag it is equal to an extra lasgunner, and in the opposite of the most favorable conditions to the least favorable lasgun it is equal to another 5 lasgunners.
2) In 10 years have yet to see an entire army spaced at 2" at every interval possible (minus MC tyranids, and Movie Marines), and if that does happen your not playing a standard good player, your playing against someone who has an irrational fear of blast markers.
3) The GL is point for point, except in the least optimal conditions generally equal to, or better then another Lasgunner, with the additional option of firing a single S6 shot if necessary. And yes, I do realise that placing them in PCS is generally dangerous, but shooting an entire combined platoon at a Tank with melta guns, but then firing a measly 4 lasguns and a pistol at a marine squad is pointless.
4) Your army is not every IG army out there, this whole conversation may not pertain to you at all, probably because you run your army completely and utterly different then mine, we may as well be different races. My platoons are the objective grabbers in my army, supported by LRMBTs, with Air drop STs w/melta support. No Vendettas, no Veterans.
|
|
|
Post by Ymmot (M.I.A) on Jun 19, 2013 10:34:22 GMT -5
2) In 10 years have yet to see an entire army spaced at 2" at every interval possible (minus MC tyranids, and Movie Marines), and if that does happen your not playing a standard good player, your playing against someone who has an irrational fear of blast markers. Yeah but the marker is only 3 inches, they just have to be spaced slightly over one inch apart. I'd give my mobile infantry platoon some flamers or nothing at all, the idea being that if they're going for objectives they'll probably get in a situation where they will be assaulted and flamers are handy to have for firing overwatch. GLs have never impressed me much but typically my platoons packs autocannons and camp in my deployment zone. I've given grenade launchers a chance, I have enough to equip every infantry squad I have with one...but that is 5 points per GL that can go toward something else and more often than not my lists simply do not have those points to spare on a weapon with dubious effectiveness.
|
|
|
Post by WestRider on Jun 19, 2013 12:29:00 GMT -5
1) Again, you're comparing a single 5 Point Lasgunner to a single 10 Point Guardsman with Grenade Launcher. If you compare 10 Points to 10 Points, the Grenade Launcher always loses, or at best breaks even.
2) Ymmot covered this one.
3) I don't shoot the PCS at anyone. Their job is to sit out of sight on a backfield objective and not die. The point of the Meltaguns isn't usually to actually kill Tanks. It's to control the area around them, make it so Tanks don't even want to come near my Advance Platoon, discourage Tank Shocks, etc. Sometimes they will end up melting someone, just because I don't have any better targets, but the fact that the Meltaguns give them a strong denial zone against both Infantry and Armour is what provides the real value.
4) Different is not equal. IF you think it's cool or fun to use inefficient Units, that's fine. I do it myself often enough, especially with my Nids and Chaos Marines. But that's a different proposition than trying to argue that a mediocre option is actually good.
|
|
|
Post by Comrade on Jun 19, 2013 21:19:19 GMT -5
Just because one believes one way of play is superior to all others does not mean other ways to play IG are not equal, it just proves one way may be cheaper money and model wise. GLs may not fit a Valk/Vend/Vet/Manticore lists (WHich need more in the AP dept.), but it is a supplement to a LRMBT/Platoon/HWS army.
I started this conversation to say it is not USELESS as every appears to make it seam and it can be useful, I even said in the 2nd line of my OP : "Is it great? No. Powerful? No. Useful? Yes. Cheap? Yes."
It is not a necessary component of anything, shoot, at moderate levels it is equal to another lasgunner... and we all know the power of a lasgunner, but it can be a semi-useful multi tool, and its not completely useless.
|
|
|
Post by WestRider on Jun 19, 2013 21:48:40 GMT -5
Cheapness, in and of itself, is not a virtue. You still need to be getting value for what you pay. And by the baseline value of the Imperial Guard (the lasgunner) you're not getting 5 points worth of value for that investment.
Again, you want to do that because it's fluffy or cool, no problem. But understand what you're getting here.
|
|
|
Post by christopher300 on Jun 20, 2013 6:04:52 GMT -5
I personally have ever fully run with grenade launchers but they haven't done a great deal for me. I see the benefit of a S6 shot but personally I like the idea of the flamer as I have seen a few opponents squirm and deliberate hard whether to charge a unit because of the flamer's overwatch.
Also I kind of find it a bit of a pain in an infantry heavy army to first, remember I have a grenade launcher in the unit and secondly, rolling separately for each one. i am always in a bit of a rush.
|
|
|
Post by yvain on Jun 20, 2013 11:00:56 GMT -5
Cheapness can be a virtue in certain situations. Having the right weapon in the right spot is what makes special weapons particularly the melta and plasma so good. In the wrong spot, they are just a point sink. They work best when they have specific kill this at all costs goal.
The lighter weapons are in a different class than melta and plasma and they really should be measured against each other.
They flamers usefulness is undeniable and is probably the best choice because of always hits, ignore cover, and overwatch. I think the sniper rifle slight better choice than the grenade launcher in most cases, especially the gunline army. With the extra range, the changes to the way units count a moved, Precision shots, rending, and effectiveness vs MCs, and pinning. None of these are the game winner, but for 5 points its not a bad improvement.
I have used grenade launchers since I started. I has its pluses and minuses. Its probably the weakest choice of the three base weapons, because it doesn't really have a special power. Like Comrade said, the one thing that it has going for it is versatility. It works in mobile and static units, can target hordes and more powerful units. I once popped a stormtalon with a krak grenade and bring it down after 3 autocannons and a quad gun all failed me. In some situations, versatility is exactly what you need.
|
|
|
Post by Ymmot (M.I.A) on Jun 20, 2013 12:03:37 GMT -5
Cheapness can be a virtue in certain situations. *Cue barebones infantry squad with no upgrades.* Ok ok, fine...nailing a flyer with krak grenades + bring it down is pretty impressive.
|
|
Sgt. Rock
Captain
Loungin' like a lizard.
Posts: 231
|
Post by Sgt. Rock on Jun 20, 2013 13:38:21 GMT -5
I will usually run a few GLs in a few places in my army for two reasons: one, I'm a cheapskate with points. Two, I only have three each of plasma gun/melta gun models, and I'm a WYSIWYG sleeper. I will usually put one in a 30 man blob along with ACs and a couple flamers, I sometimes put a couple with my CCS (who shouldn't ever be within shooting range of ANYTHING, but it happens) and I run my PCS with a flamer, a vox, and two GLs. I've had stupidly good luck with that unit, it's killed far above its pay grade. I have no idea why, I think it's because the other guy looks at them and discounts them. Are they amazing weapons? Hell no. But they're really not *that* much worse, point for point, than a flamer, and a damn sight more useful than a sniper rifle. Scattering a couple of them hither and thither won't hurt your case much. Season to taste.
|
|
|
Post by yvain on Jun 20, 2013 14:04:16 GMT -5
Cheapness can be a virtue in certain situations. *Cue barebones infantry squad with no upgrades.* Ok ok, fine...nailing a flyer with krak grenades + bring it down is pretty impressive. I should clarify and point out that I run autocannons attach to my squads behind a defense line. Really I was out of options taking that thing out and I was hoping the autocannons would nail it, but it just so happens that GLs can do the job too when you fail roll as bad as I did. This came up a second time when I was about to be charged by a deep striking dreadnought that had only 1 HP, but my remaining launcher failed to pen. And then charged my platoon which could not cause damage to it. This is why its better than a naked guardsmen. The lasgun cannot hurt certain targets. Nor can the flamer or the sniper. For 5 points is a good deal for that kind of flexibility.
|
|
|
Post by WestRider on Jun 20, 2013 18:43:27 GMT -5
Cheapness can be a virtue in certain situations. *Cue barebones infantry squad with no upgrades.* Ok ok, fine...nailing a flyer with krak grenades + bring it down is pretty impressive. This is basically my point. The bare-bones Infantry Squad exemplifies cheapness as a virtue, because it's actually good at what it does: Anti-Infantry and Objective Holding. As for the other, the fact that you once managed to pull off something with a 3.4% chance of success doesn't mean that it's a good idea. Every bell curve has a far end, and you're just as likely to miss with the thing every regular shot for 5 Turns running. Versatility is also only a virtue if the Unit or Upgrade in question is actually at least decent at all those options. A Platoon with 3 Meltaguns is versatile, because it can effectively and reliably take on basically any target except Flyers*. A Platoon with 3 Grenade Launchers has a large range of targets that it can only engage effectively with ridiculous luck. * And WraithKnights, but F*** those guys
|
|
|
Post by yvain on Jun 21, 2013 10:55:21 GMT -5
I understand what you are saying and I think you are right in almost every circumstance. However, to me a 3 melta guns platoon in a unit with BS 3 and no defined goal is a waste of points. The plasma gun makes slightly more sense because of its range and extra shots, but again to me its a waste.
And its not about a 3.4% chance of one hit, but giving myself another dice for an unknown target. With 3 GLs my 30 blob, 3 str 6 dice to add to the 6 str 7 from auto cannons.
At the tail end of the list when you cannot afford any additional units nor better special weapons, this is where it comes in. It has a purpose, its just a smaller niche one.
|
|
|
Post by WestRider on Jun 21, 2013 13:11:05 GMT -5
They have a defined goal. Their purpose is to own midfield, regardless of what comes at them. Between Meltaguns, Lasguns, Power Axes, Meltabombs, and sheer massed CC Attacks, they can do that.
BS3 is way less of an issue for Guard than it would be for another Army. With Bring It Down (not to mention the possibility of Allied Psykers with Prescience), BS3 becomes more reliable than BS4 without the re-rolls.
What I'm saying by the 3.4% comment is to not read too much into that. It's possible, but it's not likely enough to use as an argument for taking something.
That last point gets to one of the big differences here, I think. I start building a list from the Platoons up. By the time I get to the tail end, their Roles and Gear are already set, and I can't trim there without fundamentally changing the list.
|
|
|
Post by that1guy on Oct 30, 2013 0:11:19 GMT -5
I can't trim there without fundamentally changing the list. Nobody is buying that sir. Everyone one here is confident that you are intelligent, experienced, and creative enough to "trim there" without fundamentally changing the list. Just the same gentleman this debate has been very interesting to watch from a distance. I am honestly learning so much.
|
|
|
Post by RedsandRoyals on Oct 30, 2013 0:30:15 GMT -5
Please be mindful of when the last post in a thread happened (four months ago in this case) before attempting to revive the discussion. Reds
|
|
|
Post by that1guy on Oct 31, 2013 9:56:13 GMT -5
*snaps to attention* !!SIR YES SIR!!
|
|