Planned army list. Beginner looking for advice.

[aluwihar]

Hi!
This is just a draft for a list. I don't have the space marines, and only have one chimera. 

The idea is to use the infantry platoon and Russ for fire support while the Veterans and Marines take objectives, supported by the hellhound.

I'm also thinking that it would be cool to buy a Punisher with Pask, and group him up with a Vanquisher, as I've seen a lot of people do. Assault Marines would be awesome as well.

If this was a 1500p battle, how do yo think this army would do? 





Primary detachment:



Company Command (100p)

- Lascannon

- Regimental Banner

- Vox



Infantry Platoon (422p)



Platoon Command Squad (55p)

- Lascannon 
- Sniper

- Vox

Infantry squad(70p)

- Autocannon 
- GL
- Vox

Infantry Squad(70p)

- Autocannon

- GL 
- Vox

Infantry Squad(65p)

- Autocannon

- GL 
Infantry Squad(72p)

- Lascannon

- Sniper 


Heavy weapon squad (90p)

- 3x ML



Veterans (185p)

- 3x plasma
- Carapace

- Chimera



Veterans (185p)

- 3x plasma

- Carapace

- Chimera



Leman Russ (150p)

Hellhound (125p)



Allied detachment (Lux Aeterna, Adeptus Astartes)



Captain (90p)



Tactical Marine Squad (200p)

- Rhino

- Plasma Gun

- Heavy Bolter



Total: 1457p

[tallarncommander]

Aluwihar,

Your list is quite good. A platoon, heavy tank, and command squad as your firebase with 4 or so mechanized units for end-game objective grabbing. Here’s some feedback:

1.) More AT and Less FS
At 1500 points I like to have about a half dozen units to deal with enemy armor (AT or anti tank units) and about a half dozen units to deal with enemy infantry (FS or fire support units). Your list has 3 AT units (a CCS, a PCS, and a line squad with lascannons) to deal with enemy armor and it has 8 FS units a bolter-plasma marine squad, a hellhound, 2 autocannon squads, 2 chimeras, and 2 plasma vet squads) to deal with enemy infantry. Consequently, I’d recommend changing some of your FS units to provide AT roles (e.g. mobile meltaguns and lascannon/vanquisher cannon-equipped units, etc.). If you dropped the carapace armor off of 1 squad and downgraded a chimplasma vet squad to a chimeltavet squad than you could change 2 autocannons to 2 lascanons.

2.) Vanilla Russ
Sadly, the Demolisher and vanilla russ were hurt by 6th and 7th editions because when we fire the ordinance gun we can only snap fire other guns. As a result many (but not all) IGers switched to Russ variants that could fire all their guns in a turn (exterminators, eradicators, executioners, and punishers). I didn’t believe this at first, but after a few games of using the old Russes and Demolishers alongside the other variants I too became convinced and put my vanilla Russes and Demolishers on the shelf. Thus, I recommend ya swap out your vanilla Russ for one of the variants that can fire all its guns (since you need more AT in your list a Vanquisher with hull lascannon and sponson multi-meltas might be a way to go; you can afford it if you drop one vet squad's carapace armor).

3.) Drop Pods vs. Rhinos
Note that most IGers who use Marine Detachments use drop-pod marines rather than rhino marines. Rhinos are just too vulnerable. You might also want to change out the plasma gun for a meltagun if you do go with a drop pod.

4.) Consider Using Blobs Rather than Voxes (Maybe)
Three or so months ago I would recommend you blob up your platoon’s autocannon squads and give the blob a commissar and then you don’t need to take as many voxes. However, I’ve been shifting back to more MSU (Multiple Small Unit) type lists and away from blobs lately. This is because a lot of the games in this area (DC area) have been using NOVA Tournament style turn-by-turn scoring or maelstrom scoring. I’ve found it’s better to have 5 or 6 individual squads grabbing objectives and 5 or 6 providing a firebase rather than large blobs doing this. So you might just want to stick with your MSU heavy and vox heavy list.

Your list is pretty solid. Good luck!

IG, “We are many. They are few.”

[aluwihar]

Thanks a lot Tallarncommander! I appreciate the time you've put into this.

1) Is Missile Launchers really THAT bad? I thought giving them the "bring it down" order would allow them to take out armor. Aren't meltavets a gamble. I mean, the guard isn't exactly known for its resilience in close quarters.

2) Yeah, sadly I've modelled my Russ as a mbt. I will make some purchases, but I want to be sure what I need first.

3) Great idea! The marines are going to be in the thick of the fight anyway, and I was a bit worried about the puny armor of the Rhino.

4) I was planning on blobbing them into two squads, hence only two voxes. However, that limits my spread of fire. I don't really know whats best. I haven't really played a single game of wh40k. I'm just theory crafting right now.

[gamma016]

I looks like a very solid list, especially for a first timer! There are a few things I'd address though.

1) Drop the point values from your list. GW doesn't like it when their precious points are put on the inter webs.

2) How do you plan to blob your platoon? Are you going 30 man with 3 Autocannons and a 10 man with a lascannon or a 20 man with 2 Autocannons and a 20 man with Autocannon and lascannon? I'd suggest not switching up the heavy weapons in one squad. We are guards men, we miss.... A lot.... If you have the models I'd suggest running them as such, 20-30 men 2-3 Autocannons and vox, 20 men 2 lascannons and vox, an dropping the missile launcher HWT.

3) Drop the HWT. Missile launchers got hit hard with the new damage table for vehicles. Since they are only AP 3, unless you are shooting at an opentopped vehicle you cannot get an explodes result. Also HWTs are very easy to kill as the can be Istant Deathed by anything with strength 6 or higher, and with their low leadership the will run and fail orders to much.

4) You don't have any flyer defence other than a snap shooting blob. In the future you may want to add a Vandetta for good anti air and anti tank.

Other than that the list looks pretty good. I don't really play marines so I'm no help with them, but everything else looks good.

[aluwihar]

Great advice Gamma!

I guess I'll do three squads in a blob with lascannons, and two with autocannons. I'll just move the heavy weapons around. The missile launchers I'll switch with a Vanquisher or something. As you both pointed out, I'll need anti-tank capability.

Giving the one squad of vets meltas might save me some points. They'll be a suicide squad anywway

[aluwihar]

How about this one?




Primary detachment:



Company Command (100p)

- Lascannon (20p)

- Regimental Banner

- Vox



Infantry Platoon (332p)
(Squad 1, 2 and 3 are a blob)


Platoon Command Squad 
- Lascannon
- Sniper
- Vox

1. Infantry squad
- Autocannon 
- GL 
2. Infantry Squad 
- Autocannon

- GL 
3. Infantry Squad
- Autocannon
- GL
4. Infantry Squad
- Lascannon
- Sniper
- Vox






Veterans
- 3x plasma

- Carapace

- Chimera



Veterans
- 3x plasma
- Carapace

- Chimera



3. Panzerdivision



Ervinus Paskus Victor (Pask standin) Punisher (plasma sponsons) (240p)

- Vanquisher (lascannon sponsons) (145p)





Allied detachment (Lux Aeterna, Adeptus Astartes)



Captain


Tactical Marine Squad
- Rhino

- Meltagun

- Heavy Bolter



Total: 1467

[Aeon]

Jul 2, 2014 16:50:09 GMT -5 gamma016 said:

I looks like a very solid list, especially for a first timer! There are a few things I'd address though.

1) Drop the point values from your list. GW doesn't like it when their precious points are put on the inter webs.

You can list total points values, but not points values for individual units or wargear. He didn't do anything, I promise


My advice on the list:

1) Keep veterans as cheap as possible. Carapace armor will not save them against heavy flamers, heavy bolters, plasma guns and other nasty weapons of similar nature, and it's an expensive doctrine. I sincerely recommend cutting out ALL of the Carapace armor in this army, and that would give you another 30 to 60 points (can't remember how many squads you had, my apologies) to play with.

2) don't mix AT with AI. A sniper rifle is only going to be effective at sniping infantry, so dont' waste a very expensive lascannon on a squad that contains a sniper rifle. Auto cannon is a much better choice

3) Honestly, I have found that lascannons do HORRIBLY in small numbers. The only way I include lascannons in the army is by bringing Vendettas, which have 3 twin linked lascannons, so your'e almost always guaranteed a hit every shooting phase, plus it's a flyer so it's harder for the enemy to take our your LCs. I would drop the lascannons on the infantry squads, and have your regular men focus on anti-infantry. Bring auto cannons, and if you're feeling lucky, bring heavy bolters instead

4) Like veterans, try to keep your platoons cheap. Guardsmen die all the same no matter what you give them, so generally I'd say replace all your grenade launchers with sniper rifles, and save yourself quite a few points that can then be invested into another melta gun. The reason I advocate for the sniper rifle, is because it's the cheapest special weapon in our codex, and has the longest range of all of the special weapons, so your line infantry will be able to get more use out of it if they opt to include heavy weapons with much longer range than, say, a grenade launcher. Also, sniper rifles have the potential to allow you to allocate your wound on an enemy commander, or a sergeant, or a heavy weapons guy, and the potential to be AP2, killing terminator armor. Lastly, they can wound a T10 model on a 4+, just like it was T3 or T4. They may be poor in low numbers, but occassionally you get lucky, and I've seen a single sniper rifle do far more damage than 3 grenade launchers on more than 1 occassion.

5) Again on the veterans: plasma is insanely expensive, and you need carapace armor to get a higher chance of keeping your plasma gunners alive. My sincere recommendation is to replace all your plasma with melta guns, especially if your men will be mechanized. You lose out on range, but it gives you an anti tank weapon that is so stupidly powerful, I promise you right now that if you're within 6" of your target with a pair of melta guns in the hands of a veteran squad, you will kill at least 1 hull point and either immobilize, stun or weapon-destroy your target every time you fire. Melta guns are the absolute best option you have in the Imperial Guard for killing enemy armor, and using Chimeras to get close is definitely the way to go. Some would say it's the "meta game" mindset right now. mechanized melta veterans. Try it out, hoss

6) Pask, also needs to be kept cheap, because he is a very very expensive, juicy target for your enemy. Also keep in mind that Murphy's Law always applies when you're playing 40k, and more often than you'd think, you will fail your Split Fire order, and then youv'e got a Vanquisher sitting there plinking at infantry alongside Pask. When I run Pask, I put him in a Punisher with heavy bolter sponsons and a hull heavy flamer (in case I get close enough, it's very useful to have). For his buddy, I run an Exterminator with a hull heavy flamer, and a pair of heavy bolters. even though you don't have AP2, you have enough shots to deal some serious damage. All shots will be prefered enemy, so you'll re roll 1s to hit and 1s to wound with both tanks. Pasks's punisher cannon will be rending, and hit on 3s, in addition to his sponson guns. My record number of kills with Pask and his accompanying tank in a single shooting phase is 18 Battle Sisters. Eighteen. Powered armored. Nuns. Also keep in mind that the plasma cannons may overheat and destroy Pask, wasting a HUGE amount of points. Keep that guy safe

7) can't speak for the Space Marines because I tried them many many many times over the past 10 years and just cannot CANNOT get interested enough in SM to learn their tactics, but, I do know that Av11/11/10 is not something I'd want to put expensive Space Marines in. Drop Pods have a far greater chance of delivering your Angels of Death right where you want them, especially because they cannot mishap when they scatter into terrain.

Best of luck to you, amigo

[aluwihar]

Thanks. I forgot to change from Rhino to drop pod.

Good point about Pask. He will be safer and cheaper with heavy bolter sponsons. As you say, if he doesn't get the split fire order, the two buddies will be a bad match. If I switch the veterans to meltavets, perhaps I don't need the extra AA from the vanquisher, and can use him as AP. THE CHOICES!!!

Anyway. I just ordered the space marine detachment and two Russes .

Is Kirov's Aquila too expensive? If a stick it close to the two (perhaps three) blobs of supporting fire, It'll make sure the gunline is alot nastier.

[Aeon]

Kirov's Aquila only has a 6" range, so unless you're using a bunch of blobs, you won't exactly get a good effect out of it just having your commander sit there. I would try the mechanized version, and use cover and other vehicles to keep your commander's chimera safe from enemy fire. The plasma death squads with the ability to re roll their overheats can be a huge advantage

I'll try out this tactic on vassal or at my game store and let you know how it goes, but so far, I have yet to see a good use for the Aquila for its massive points cost

[aluwihar]

I really appreciate your help man. The making of an army list is daunting. I will probably be back with more questions

[gamma016]

You list is lookin better, but for the best bang for your buck this is what I would do:

HQ:

Tank Commander - Punisher, Pask, Heavy Bolter Sponsons, Camonetting
- Vanquisher, Lascannon, Camonetting

The heavy bolters mesh better with the punisher cannon than the plasma cannons. This way you will be firing 20 strength 5 rending shots and 9 strength 5 ap 4 shots all rerolling ones to hit and to wound, and rerolling armour penetration. The plasma cannons are nice but don't work as well for the purpose of volume of fire, and that's what punisher pask is best for.

Company Command Squad - Lascannon, Vox caster, Regimental Standard

Hit this one spot on the head. Let's you reroll failed orders, moral, fear and pinning as well as gives you a BS4 Lascannon.

Troops:

Infantry Platoon:

Platoon Command Squad - Lascannon, Vox Caster

Drop the sniper as the lascannon will be best used for anti tank.

Infantry Squad x3 - Autocannon x3, Vox Caster

The grenade launchers aren't doing you much good as their range is much lower than your Autocannons. If you have the points you can put them back in, or put in flamers for assualt deterant. Also if you can find the points add a commissar. They help lots with moral and orders.

Infantry Squad x2 - Lascannon x2, Vox Caster

One lascannon at BS3 isn't enough to do much. Also this helps your squad stay alive longer as their is more bodies to get through.

Veterans - Plasma Gun x2, Chimera

Veterans - Plasma Guns x2, Chimera

Unless you are up against a lot of tanks in your area I'd keep these guys as plasma gunners. I do have to suggest dropping one plasma gun and the carapace. Only two will be able to fire out of the top hatch of the chimera. Also in a chimera the only armour saves you might deal with are get's hot results and explodes! results.

For the marines I don't really know as I know nothing about them. Hopefully this was helpful though.

[aluwihar]

This was of great help. I really like this forum.

[treadiculous]

I think you've ended up with a very solid list if you're using gamma's.



Your marines in the drop pod will want to focus on close combat, stick a decent close combat weapon on the sergeant and take a melta gun and heavy flamer (if that's legal - I think only sternguard can do this, which might be worth considering - less marines but more firepower)

Its not normally worth upgrading the drop pod and the guard list is very solid so if points are tight I would drop the melta gun and rely on the serg to crack open vehicles / walkers with a powerfist.




I think you need some kind of answer for flyers though.


I know you can get a flakk missile for the marine squad but I feel having just 1 man with an AA weapon is a waste.. maybe consider a stormtalon instead of the hellhound? (the 360 degree assault cannon is very handy).

[aluwihar]

The tactical squad cannot use heavy flamers sadly. I'll equip them with a melta, perhaps drop the heavy bolter as they are going into the thick of it anyway.

Eventually I'll buy a Vendetta, but you know... money.

My Space Marines are a sister chapter of the Black Templars. That was purely fluff based, since I'm going for a fanatical theme for my army. My captain will then get rending and rerolls to hit in challenges. The marines also get adamantium will and crusader, making them more mobile.

Good point about buffing the captain for CC.