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Post by stovrose on Aug 11, 2014 19:24:49 GMT -5
Subject says it all. State your case. I shall return with my point in a short while.
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Post by Paimon on Aug 11, 2014 22:39:46 GMT -5
The Basilisk has a 20 foot range. The Wyvern does not.
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Post by Casiarius on Aug 11, 2014 22:49:16 GMT -5
I don't use either one, and have no immediate plans to. But if I did, I'd vote Wyvern. 7th Edition has lots of "Objective Secured" infantry that need killing, and the terrifying "death of a thousand rerolls" can brutalize almost any Troops choice, as well as many assault units that might otherwise eat our helpless blob squads alive.
What's wrong with the Basilisk? Well, in spite of the iconic image of a battery of Basilisks lobbing shells over a hill and blowing up foes on the other side, the Earthshaker Cannon often ends up being used as a direct fire weapon. It's more damaging/accurate that way, and the things you really want dead are often inside its 36" minimum range.
When you consider that the 12/10/10 open-topped Basilisk is doing basically the same job as a Leman Russ, why wouldn't you spend 25 points to upgrade it to a 14/13/10 Battle Tank?
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Post by yvain on Aug 12, 2014 8:39:59 GMT -5
I don't use either one, and have no immediate plans to. But if I did, I'd vote Wyvern. 7th Edition has lots of "Objective Secured" infantry that need killing, and the terrifying "death of a thousand rerolls" can brutalize almost any Troops choice, as well as many assault units that might otherwise eat our helpless blob squads alive. What's wrong with the Basilisk? Well, in spite of the iconic image of a battery of Basilisks lobbing shells over a hill and blowing up foes on the other side, the Earthshaker Cannon often ends up being used as a direct fire weapon. It's more damaging/accurate that way, and the things you really want dead are often inside its 36" minimum range. When you consider that the 12/10/10 open-topped Basilisk is doing basically the same job as a Leman Russ, why wouldn't you spend 25 points to upgrade it to a 14/13/10 Battle Tank? To counter point you, you often get at least two turns of IDF sometimes 3. The benefit is you can get past cover saves and have an extra strength point for vehicles . This is really important as the first turn especially if you are going first, forces are often clumped together using cover shenanigans. In addition, there are often units left in the back field holding objectives or conducting long range bombardments of their own the entire game. Here the Bassie beats out the LRBT. As for the original question, it is the Wyvern. It is ridiculously good at what it does. Even better it costs nothing. It does so much work and is a who cares if it dies vehicle because of the price. |
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Post by tallarncommander on Aug 12, 2014 12:01:01 GMT -5
I like them both. Both often turn out to be one of my more effective units.
I choose which to take based on what else is in my list. I take a bassy if I need to fill out an anti-heavy infantry role or I take a wyvern (I usually pair up 2) if I need to fill an anti-light infantry role.
As has been stated elsewhere, the wyvern (thanks to it's being twin-linked and shredding) can deal with heavy infantry in a pinch, but my wyverns struggle when compared to the bassy for taking out MEQs out of cover. Also, in the 14 years I've been using my bassy ("Vengeance"), I really haven't had an issue with the bassy's minimum range; if I'm forced to fire direct fire, so be it.
-Tallarn Commander
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Post by gamma016 on Aug 12, 2014 13:17:21 GMT -5
I agree with tallarn commander, they are both very affective but serve different purposes. The basilisk is much more useful against multi wound toughness 4 and lower units as it can ID then, and against vehicles even though it can't explode them any more. The wyvern is great against MC's where it can stack up a lot of wounds where a basilisk could only do one, and against infantry. I know it's not mentioned here yet but the manticore still deserves a shout out as it can also be great for anti infantry and anti tank. I'd say manticores and wyverns are the way to go.
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Post by treadiculous on Aug 12, 2014 13:22:33 GMT -5
I haven't had any experience with a Wyvern.
However I have a love of mortar heavy weapon squads and the wyvern is cheaper and twin linked and shredding...
I do have 3 basilisk and I am very fond of these too
It is hard to chose one or the other as they fulfill a different role. (wyvern is probably the choice of the meta).
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Post by stovrose on Aug 12, 2014 18:48:58 GMT -5
So many thoughts are as thus: Basilisk: I will NEVER replace these. I love the sound of the cannon (in my head) every time I roll. Good versatile 8 3 weapon. Wyvern: I'm surprised no one mentioned that you pretty much get a pair of them for the price of a basi... With that said, that's 8 small blasts twin linked shred no cover... right? It's an infantry killer, and thats it. It doesn't matter what kind of infantry, your squad is putting enough wounds there, they'll die. And since it was mentioned... The manticore. In my mind, it's a vehicle killer and thats it. Str 10 ordnance. AP 4 and still getting area terrain cover doesn't really make it a very dependable infantry killer in my opinion. But that str 10 side armor does  In short. Basilisk is my favorite and will continue to be a primary item in my army. Big Guns Never Tire |
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Post by dangerrod on Aug 13, 2014 1:39:29 GMT -5
The Wyvern is probably the best anti-infantry unit in the game right now, especially with the change to barrage rules in 7th Ed
Basically ANY standard troop choice in the game that come within 48" of a wyvern is going to be in a world of hurt! At 65pts it should be an auto include in any AM list.
This tank is brutal, ignoring cover and shred make it lethal. Used in conduction with someone like Pask in a punisher or any anti tank weaponry, to open transports, it will tear through a 5 man squad of MEQ in a turn
I've seen one of these babies put a staggering amount of wounds out. my current highest for one round of shooting is 18 wounds on a squad of Inquisitorial henchman (7-8 models Inc, Coteaz, crusaders and DCA) and pretty much wiped the floor with them!
The amount of of points a Wyvern costs should easily see it see it recoup those in 2 turns. In fact mine have killed so much that the local players are targeting them before even looking at Pask and his buddies!
The Basilisk is a good tank, but it really should have been dropped down to 100 -110pts. A single large blast is ok, but a bad scatter and thats it. Yes it can instant kill MEQ, but only reliably if they're in the open. We have much better options for killing MEQ troops and much better options for popping vehicles.
The only way I'd really look at taking one or a squadron would be in Apocalypse games.
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Post by treadiculous on Aug 13, 2014 4:57:59 GMT -5
given most apocalypse games are quite short ranged, I wouldn't suggest Basilisk.
The Wyvern is very powerful and the fact it has gained an auto-include status is poor codex writing.
The mortar HWS are bad enough!.. the cheapness, extra rules and survivability of the Wyvern make me think it should be a similar cost to the Basilisk.
But cheap points sells models.. so lets all go buy the new OP!
(please don't take this as a dig at anyone, we have tools... might as well use the best ones!)
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Post by Casiarius on Aug 13, 2014 14:47:47 GMT -5
The Wyvern is a new kit, and it has really good rules, which has the completely unintended side-effect of boosting sales. Funny how that often happens.
Although I don't actually have any Wyverns, I have seen them in action, and they can be amazing at clearing the field of enemy infantry. Still, I am coming back to the game from 4th Edition and I still tend to think of the old-school solutions. The Inferno Cannon on a Hellhound never misses, ignores cover, wounds most infantry on a 2+, ignores most armor, and the big template insures lots of wounds even if the targets are getting saves. The Hellhound does lack the Wyvern's range, but it can grab objectives and toast the passengers in open-topped vehicles and bunkers.
I have been wondering about the feasibility of the Manticore since they nerfed Demolishers by taking away their sponsons.
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Post by emptyhat on Aug 14, 2014 19:55:38 GMT -5
The Wyvern is a new kit, and it has really good rules, which has the completely unintended side-effect of boosting sales. Funny how that often happens. Oddly there have been a fair few new kits with high prices and weak rules lately. But then again there are a fair few new kits that do have sweet rules, like the Wyvern. Of course if you own a bunch of Griffins or other redundant arty pieces at least you can field them as Wyverns. |
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Post by Captain Zapp Brannigan on Aug 14, 2014 21:47:42 GMT -5
The Wyvern is a new kit, and it has really good rules, which has the completely unintended side-effect of boosting sales. Funny how that often happens. Although I don't actually have any Wyverns, I have seen them in action, and they can be amazing at clearing the field of enemy infantry. Still, I am coming back to the game from 4th Edition and I still tend to think of the old-school solutions. The Inferno Cannon on a Hellhound never misses, ignores cover, wounds most infantry on a 2+, ignores most armor, and the big template insures lots of wounds even if the targets are getting saves. The Hellhound does lack the Wyvern's range, but it can grab objectives and toast the passengers in open-topped vehicles and bunkers. I have been wondering about the feasibility of the Manticore since they nerfed Demolishers by taking away their sponsons. I love the hellhound and always field one however its points are comparable to some Leman Russ variants which makes me sad :/ |
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Post by dangerrod on Aug 21, 2014 1:28:17 GMT -5
The Wyvern is a new kit, and it has really good rules, which has the completely unintended side-effect of boosting sales. Funny how that often happens. Although I don't actually have any Wyverns, I have seen them in action, and they can be amazing at clearing the field of enemy infantry. Still, I am coming back to the game from 4th Edition and I still tend to think of the old-school solutions. The Inferno Cannon on a Hellhound never misses, ignores cover, wounds most infantry on a 2+, ignores most armor, and the big template insures lots of wounds even if the targets are getting saves. The Hellhound does lack the Wyvern's range, but it can grab objectives and toast the passengers in open-topped vehicles and bunkers. I have been wondering about the feasibility of the Manticore since they nerfed Demolishers by taking away their sponsons. I love the hellhound and always field one however its points are comparable to some Leman Russ variants which makes me sad :/ Yeah, I'm not sure whoever wrote the rules for the FA section of the current codex were doing that day, the whole section reads like a lazy Friday afternoon at the office! Across the whole section, the points costs are all over the place I love the HH and the BW, but they're just too expensive for what you get in comparison to the rest of the book. Dropping the points costs of the LR variants means your more likely to go for a wall of AV14 rather than AV12. In saying that, I'm determined to write a list with these in, maybe along side a full Tempestus army riding short busses! Coming back on track, I'm not sure the Wyvern is a case of bad rules writing (weapons wise), but its definitely undercoated by a good 20-30 points. However, don't forget it is VERY fragile though I'd still rate them completely in any list, their area denial is awesome! At this years ATC, I saw one guy with 6 of them! |
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Post by Lord General Armstrong on Sept 3, 2014 20:34:59 GMT -5
The Wyvern is VERY points efficient, to the point that it's almost an auto include against anything with a 3+ save or worse. The amount of re-roll-able saves this thing can force is staggering, so much so that it can make most standard MEQ's cringe. Though, against anything with a 2+ armour save, high toughness, and prevalence in the current meta of flyers and flying monsterous creatures its effectiveness starts to drop off pretty quickly. But hey, it's fornicateing cheap.
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