How to Equip Tyranids in 5th Ed - Heavy Support

[akaiyou]

BIOVORES
My analysis

BIO-WEAPONS
Ranged
=========
Toxin - MAYBE - These are good to have because you always wound enemy models on a 4+ due to strength always = enemy toughness. AP4 makes this very effective against 4+ save infantry, however this loses out to frag mines against models with toughness 3 with anything but a 4+ save, and only does equal damage against T4 enemies with a 3+ or better save. Also note Toxin mines can ONLY attack open topped vehicles and will ONLY glance (automatically however).
Frag - YES - These are the choice mines! They are the most cost effective and do more damage against the large majority of infantry models. And are still able to glance AV 10.
Bio-Acid - YES - These are the most expensive but most versatile of the mines because you can aim it at almost any infantry unit and vehicle and have a chance at damaging it.


Recommended Configurations To Use
GENERAL RECOMMENDATION
Biovores do a good job against heavy infantry armies, so this is THE time to use 'em if you want to use them. However do not USE Biovores at all! 5th edition has royally screwed these guys up. In kill point games your mines will grant your opponent an easy kill point if you miss your shot this is ridiculous and needs to be addressed in a new FAQ or Codex so do not take unless you are certain you will not be playing Annihilation.

3 Biovores
w/Frag Mines

- The best choice because of consistency of use. This will be the most useful against the majority of targets that you fire your Biovore at and it's also the most cost effective of the 3. Rating 10/10

3 Biovores
w/Bio-Acid Mines

- The most expensive but is decent as an anti-light vehicle weapon, as well as having the best AP of the 3. The problem is that it lacks strength, and most targets that save on 3s will come with toughness 4. meaning you'll wound on 5s. On the plus side the new blast rules makes this a better option because now that there's no partials it means you'll land more hits and thus more wounds per blast even if you wound only 1/3rd of what you hit. Rating 9/10

3 Biovores
w/Toxin Mines

- This one seems to be the weakest link due to the fact that it's only really effective against Tau and armies with large amount of units that save on 4s. Against any other target the other 2 mine types do a much better job. So unless you are facing Tau or similar, do NOT take this one as you'll be paying more for less. Rating 6/10

ZOANTHROPES
My analysis

HIVE MIND POWERS
Catalyst - Maybe - Very cheap and useful power when facing down enemies with high (I) stat. You use this power on other broods to allow them to strike even if killed before they get they get a chance. Can be useful as well if your brood did not take Flesh Hooks and are assaulting units in cover. However taking this power means you can't take some of the other more useful powers.
Psychic Scream - Yes - This power is sweet! too sweet maybe? Dropping enemy leadership has so many benefits that I won't even list them all. Just one of these is useful on it's own right and when you take more of them together it becomes exponentially deadly. I specially recommend this power against armies that already have low Ld like Tau.
Synapse Creature - Yes - The most useful power hands down! Almost compulsory in all cases unless u want to take zoanthropes as a psychic scream wall along with a Tyrant.
The Horror - No - No! just no! This power is hardly useful on a Tyrant let alone a Zoanthrope. Just pretend it's not there. It "WOULD" be very useful in a pack of psychic screaming zoanthropes however most of the time enemies will try to shoot a zoanthrope, and there are other powers that would be much more useful in that slot.
Warp Blast - Yes - Our most deadly shot due to high AP and Strengh. Can be pricey but worth every penny specially against MEQ armies. And remember any vehicle within 24" can be sent to the scrapyard (move and shoot it down).

Recommended Configurations To Use
GENERAL RECOMMENDATION
Zoanthropes are the ish! I love these guys they can be used in many ways and tend to be a very cheap and reliable source of synapse due to their permanent Warp Field. Many times it's worth taking a group of zoanthropes instead of a carnifex because of the added synapse you can get for your units and because warp blast is a very good weapon and can shoot even the toughest AV 14 enemy vehicles down within 18" range. Also keep in mind that Zoanthropes do NOT need to be equipped Identically! So you can always mix and match your psychic powers to complement each other or handle different tasks. Also note that you can always just take 1 power with a 2nd one being entirely optional.

3 Zoanthrope @ 195 Pts
Synapse Creature; Warp Blast

- This is the preferred set-up allowing you to support strongly with synapse as well as giving you another unit that can kill enemies at a range and even take down the toghest AV vehicles. Rating 10/10

3 Zoanthrope @ 150 Pts
Catalyst; Psychic Scream

- This set-up is a Hive Tyrant combo that can prove deadly to any enemy. Able to support other units with catalyst and seriously drop enemy leadership withing 18" range. You COULD drop catalyst and save some points however I find the added support is very beneficial to your other units since it'll take you at least 1 or 2 turns to get within 18" of an enemy for psychic scream to be useful. Rating 9/10

3 Zoanthrope @ 195 Pts
Psychic Scream; Warp Blast

- Another Hive Tyrant combo gets expensive but allows you all the benefits of warp blast while you move towards your target. Within 18" range this combo becomes very strong causing many enemy casualties and will easily cause them to fall back due to the -4 leadership from Tyrant + Zoan psychic screams. Rating 8/10

3 Zoanthrope @ 165 Pts
Psychic Scream; Synapse Creature

- This set-up is good if you don't want your zoanthropes to team up with the Tyrant for a psychic scream enemy melt down. Just one scream is still very useful in causing enemy to fail their tests. This set up shines as a assault support providing synapse and helping to increase the chance for sweeping advance. Rating 8/10

3 Zoanthrope @ 150 Pts
Catalyst; Synapse Creature

- Very useful if your zoanthropes main task is to provide synapse for your gaunts. Catalyst works very well here when you face off against armies that have several high I units. It's also useful if you are taking many many gaunts and want to save points on flesh hooks. Rating 6/10

3 Zoanthrope @ 135 Pts
Synapse Creature

- The best 'cheap' set-up. Just taking Synapse is useful when you don't have points to spare and need strong synapse for your units. Just remember that that's all their be good for. Rating 6/10

3 Zoanthrope @ 150 Pts
Psychic Scream; The Horror

- The one instance when this could possibly be useful is when fighting a CC army and you are intending to support your units in CC with Psychic Scream to help sweeping advance results. This set up will prevent your zoanthropes from being assaulted most of the time and be useful at lowering Ld. If you want synapse u can drop one scream and add synapse to one of the zoanthropes. Rating 6/10

CARNIFEX
My analysis[/b]
BIOMORPHS
Acid Maw - NO - you will wound most things on 2+.
Adrenal Glands (I) - Maybe - if facing many power fists otherwise no.
Adrenal Glands (WS) - YES - Always a useful CC upgrade for a Carnifex specially elite fex.
Bio-Plasma - Maybe - No MC benefits, only ever good vs monolith and walkers in cc.
Bonded Exoskeleton - Yes - nullify damage against Str 3. Reduces effectiveness of mid range weapons, and it's VERY useful in CC. Very useful add on, overall better value than extended carapace.
Enhanced Senses - YES - required to have decent shooting.
Extended Carapace - Maybe - Makes a joke out of any weapon that is not AP 2. And weapons that don't ignore armour saves in CC. However most weapons fired at a fex ARE usually goin to be AP2, so what should be a MUST-HAVE bio-morph becomes iffy.
Flesh Hooks - No - This one is also good if u are playing with lots of impassable terrain. Otherwise Spine Banks serves the same purpose much better.
Implant Attack - No - Not worth it unless making an uber expensive CC fex..which you want to AVOID like the plague.
Regenerate - NO - Ridiculous cost minimal reward.
Reinforced Chitin - YES - best defensive upgrade for any Carnifex. If you have the points always take this.
Spine Banks - Maybe - same benefits as flesh hooks when assaulting, and has an added gun. Take this is you are taking a CC fex so that you can get a cheap extra weapon.
Spore Cysts - NO - NO! seriously! NO! This CAN hurt you.
Symbiote Rippers - NO - Pointless upgrade.
Tail Weapon-Mace - YES - if you are making a CC fex take this! It's the best choice, cost effective and useful against swarms.
Tail Weapon-Scythe - Maybe - This is not too bad a choice but you need to add toxin sacs to really get the most out of it and it does not cause 2x the wounds per turn yet costs a lot more than the mace tail.
Thornback - NO - Pointless upgrade.
Toxic Miasma - YES - Works wonders with AG(W) great for a elite CC fex.
Toxin Sacs - Maybe - only good when taking tail weapon scythe otherwise forget this.
Tusked - Maybe - good for a heavy support CC fex however CC fexes should be left for elite choices.

WEAPON SYMBIOTES
Close Combat
=========
Crushing Claws - NO - Ok this is tempting there's a possibility of getting a lot of attacks out of it, however you also have a possibility of getting fewer attacks out of it. It's a gamble a very pricey one, so i have to say NO!
Rending Claws - NO - If you really want to make a VERY VERY cheap fex but under any other circumstance NO!
Scything Talons - YES - This is a great CC weapon for both CC oriented and mixed carnifexes.
Lash Whips - MAYBE - real good defensive but not all too useful on a carnifex unless you know you are gonna be assaulted by or assaulting CC units with more than 1 attack. Most of the time you'll be better off taking ST instead.


Ranged
=====
Barbed Strangler - MAYBE - Great anti-infantry weapon with decent anti-tank capabilities. Unfortunately this edition this weapon scatters and thus becomes somewhat less effective as it can easily scatter off target this is specially true against vehicles.
Twin-Linked Deathspitter - NO - Loses a lot of it's potential, a barbed strangler is always a better choice.
Twin-Linked Devourer - YES - THE weapon of choice for elite carnifexes! Highly recommended.
Twin-Linked Barbed Strangler - No - Better than the single strangler, allowing you a better chance to hit your mark. However this improvement is not all that great you'll still need luck on your side and it costs too much points for only getting a re-roll on scatter that could just scatter again just as bad or worst than the first roll.
Twin-Linked Venom Cannon - NO - You get to re-roll but costs a ridiculous amount of points most veteran players will recommend against taking this in any situation it is simply NOT worth it.
Venom Cannon - YES - Always, Always take this on a heavy support fex! Wether shooty or mixed this is THE weapon of choice for HS fexes. The venom cannon is are best anti-tank and most armies have tanks, and you'll likely to be facing AV13 unless you start manuevering like crazy, the VC can reliably stop enemy vehicles in their tracks. Works very well coupled with the Barbed Strangler for the strongest most versatile carnifex set-up in our codex.


Recommended Configurations To Use
GENERAL RECOMMENDATION
The carnifex is just so versatile you can make him fit any role you want, however the general consensus is that CC fexes are BAD! Or at least just NOT as good as Shooty fexes. Even tho in this edition we have the RUN ability and so does your opponent thus if he so desires he can keep moving away from your CC fex so that you won't ever hit combat unless the opponent actually wants to engage you. CC fexes tho are good at holding objectives as enemies will most likely not want to get withing 12" of a CC fex. If you are making a CC fex make him an elite choice, our Heavy Support power should be focused for anti-tank shooty fexes. Speaking of, the best choice is the sniper fex but if you want CC power you can forgo the barbed strangler and add ST to your fex as well as some CC biomorphs and you'll have a reliable beast. However be warned that they get VERY pricey.


Recommended Configurations To Use
1 Carnifex @ 163 Pts
Enhanced Senses +1 BS; Reinforced Chitin; Barbed Strangler; Venom Cannon

- Best heavy support carnifex configuration, the most commonly used by Tyranid power players for it's great effectiveness. You can remove chitin if you need to save points. Rating 10/10

1 Carnifex @ 113 Pts
Enhanced Senses +1 BS; Twin-linked Devourer (x2)

- Best elite carnifex configuration, very low cost very high damage output and capable of damaging AV 12 with some luck. This is the most comonly used power player elite fex, specially in godzilla armies. Rating 10/10

1 Carnifex @ 218 Pts
Adrenal Glands +1 WS; Bonded Exoskeleton; Enhanced Senses +1 BS; Extended Carapace +1 Save; Reinforced Chitin; Spine Banks; Tail Weapon - Mace; Toxic Miasma; Scything Talons (x1); Venom Cannon

- Great fex, VERY expensive but capable of doing a good job anti-tank and in CC. Add Tusked if you want extra charging power Rating 9/10

1 Carnifex @ 203 Pts
Adrenal Glands +1 WS; Bonded Exoskeleton; Enhanced Senses +1 BS; Extended Carapace +1 Save; Reinforced Chitin; Spine Banks; Tail Weapon - Mace; Toxic Miasma; Scything Talons (x1); Barbed Strangler

- Pummels infantry however you may just kill most of your targets with the strangler alone before you actually get into CC. Still a decent choice if you strip him of all biomorphs he also makes a decent elite fex since BS 2 or 3 doesnt make much difference on the barbed strangler Rating 7/10


1 Carnifex @ 113 Pts
Adrenal Glands +1 WS; Toxic Miasma; Scything Talons (x2)

- Cool CC fex a.k.a the Ninja Fex it's cheap and does well in CC versus most infantry. Best option when you want a CC fex Rating 7/10

1 Carnifex @ 148 Pts
Enhanced Senses +1 BS; Reinforced Chitin; Twin-linked Barbed Strangler

- Decent fex able to give good stable anti-infantry support. Just avoid using him against tanks even with the re-roll it's not reliable for anti-tank duties. Rating 6/10

1 Carnifex @ 189 Pts
Adrenal Glands +1 In; Adrenal Glands +1 WS; Bonded Exoskeleton; Extended Carapace +1 Save; Reinforced Chitin; Spine Banks; Tail Weapon - Mace; Toxic Miasma; Scything Talons (x2)

- Good CC fex a much better value than it's Crushing Claw counterpart. This fex is much less expensive and reliable. However it's flawed by the curse of the CC fex remember u can't assault after a RUN use strategically. Rating 6/10

1 Carnifex @ 217 Pts
Adrenal Glands +1 In; Adrenal Glands +1 WS; Bonded Exoskeleton; Extended Carapace +1 Save; Reinforced Chitin; Spine Banks; Tail Weapon - Scythe; Toxic Miasma; Toxin Sacs +1 St; Crushing Claws; Scything Talons (x1)

- If you REALLY like the gambling all or nothing style of play this fex is what you want. He's a CC fex so he has all the problems that come with a CC fex however he's a potential monster in CC, just remember he can also be very very crapy if your luck is anything less than great. Rating 4/10

[WestRider]

One nice little benefit for Synapse-only 'Thropes. I've noticed that lots of times, since they aren't shooting anything or doing anything particularly noticeable, my Opponents just kind of forget that they're there, making my Synapse Net almost unbreakable. They do each give up individual Kill Points, though, which is kind of lame.

Warp Blast actually isn't that great against the Heavy Armour that really gives Nids trouble, only having ~5% chance of actually Destroying an AV 14 Vehicle. (11/12 for the Psychic Test, 1/2 to Hit, 1/3 to Pen (since Glances can't Destroy any more), 1/3 to actually kill the thing.) Goes up to about 9% if it's a Land Raider that can be mostly dealt with by Immobilizing it, but still not great odds.

I'd also include some of the mixed groups in your examples, stuff like:
3 'Thropes, 3x Psychic Scream, 2x Warp Blast, 1x Catalyst, 180 Points. Nice Unholy Choir Brood that can still provide some support to nearby Assault Units while also picking up a bit of the Anti-Tank duties.

Fexen could get an entire article twice this length for them alone. A couple points I'd like to expand on.

Bonded Exoskeleton and Extended Carapace: These ones really depend on your Metagame. Bonded Exoskeleton is awesome against massed S3 Attacks, and pretty nice against S5-8, but does absolutely nothing against S4 or 9-10. So you really need to think about what your Fex is going to get shot with before deciding how useful that is. If your Opponents are all packing masses of Lascannon or Railguns, you're just wasting Points.

Similarly, Extended Carapace is very nice against massed firepower, and useless against AP1-2, but it is absolutely GOLD against AP3-heavy Armies. In particular, I'm thinking Orks here, who have tons of AP3, but basically no AP2 available, but it also applies if you face a bunch of SM or IG Players who like Missile Launchers over Lascannon. Think carefully about what you're likely to face before picking up either of those.

Bio-Plasma: Becomes very nice against armies with a poor Armour Save, like Orks or Guard, where the fact that it allows Saves is less important and it basically just becomes an extra Attack. Also nice for Fast Moving Vehicles, where you need 6s to hit with the rest of your Attacks.

Lash Whips: I've gotta put these in the NO category. Anything that Lash Whips would really help against, you shouldn't be letting get anywhere near a Fex.

Crushing Claws: These are really a psychological weapon. Difficult to use properly, but they can force your Opponent to over-commit in reaction to the potential damage they can inflict, giving you an advantage elsewhere on the table. Still not highly recommended unless you really know what you're doing, but their purpose is not fully captured by simply taking the Mean of the number of Attacks.

Barbed Strangler: Since a 1" Scatter will still land on top of most Vehicles, the Barbed Strangler is still pretty much as accurate as it was last Edition, and now the Blast Marker is going to land somewhere. Also, note that it can cause Pinning, very nice in combination with an Unholy Choir.

Venom Cannon: Is now kind of a poor Anti-Tank option, since it can't actually Destroy most Vehicles with the 5th Ed Damage Table. Still useful for Tank Suppression Until you can get a CombatFex or Tyrant up there to actually kill the thing, but it's not by any means a reliable AT Weapon.

One more Fex build that's become very common: The BoomFex, 113 Points for just a Barbed Strangler and a pair of ScyTals. In combination with 3 SniperFexen and an Unholy Choir, these form the core of the Nuke Choir list that's emerged as one of the stronger Tournament Nid lists in 5th Ed.

[akaiyou]

Mmmm you prefer strangler over venom cannon?

I don't see how the strangler is better. and a 1" scatter?? you scater on 2d6 bro. MINIMUM scatter is 2" if you roll snake eyes.

I use monopoly odds in this manner and with BS 2 dropping your scatter by 2" that still leaves a very wide range of scatter making the strangler near useless against vehicles.

While the venom cannon is still very reliable at damaging vehicles every turn.

[Ymmot (M.I.A)]

you do subtract the bs of the firer from your scatter distance...a result of a snakeeyes is a bullseye. (two out of six possible rolls is a bullseye, what happens if your venom cannon misses? even if you have enhanced senses it is still a 50/50 shot)

the template itself is 5 inches across, you only need part of it to touch in order to cause a hit...so that is why I'd take the strangler over the venom cannon.

and the venom cannon can only cause glancing hits on any vehicles that is not open topped...


though once my strangler scattered backwards and hit my own hormagaunts...so it does have its drawbacks too...

[WestRider]

Exactly, Strangler scatters 2d6-BS. On a SniperFex with +BS, that means that a roll of 2, 3, or 4 will land within 1" of the aiming Point. Plus, of course, the 1/3 chance of getting a "Hit" on the Scatter Die. Once it hits, it's exactly the same as a Krak Missile, which has always been regarded as a decent Anti-Tank Weapon.

The Venom Cannon, on the other hand, can't even Destroy a Rhino with fewer than 3 Hits, given the new Glancing Hits table. Don't get me wrong, it's still a good weapon, but it's a Tank Suppression Weapon, not a Tank Killing Weapon. You still need to have something else moving up there to finish it off.

[akaiyou]

lol oh boy kk let me break it down for you guys. As far as AT the VC > BS by a LARGE LARGE margin.
Even in 5th edition where it's been nerfed.

1. BS 2 Strangler (because most ppl won't bother putting enhanced senses when the strangler is their main weapon).

- This thing will NOT destroy a vehicle if you roll ANYTHING over a 4 on 2d6 for scatter. Because once you substracted the 2" for being BS2. You are left with a 2" hit radius on most vehicles.

- ymmot you forgot one VERY important detail about blast weapons vs tanks. If the center of the marker is NOT over the vehicle's hull then you will hit at half strength. Take a tape measure and place a large blast over ANY 40k vehicle of your choice and assume that you scattered 3" in all directions and see how many times the center is still on the vehicles hull.

- In other words scatter more than 2" and it's a 'miss'. And considering that you have about 70% chance of rolling more than a 4 on 2d6. This means that the strangler has less of a chance of actually hitting a vehicle full strength.

2. Even if you do magically land a hit. This is the same as hitting with a Krak Missile as westrider said. Which is regarded as decent anti-tank. Keyword : DECENT. S8 is pretty much bare minimum to have a 'chance' at damaging a tank. That's why people usually pump a TON of s8 shots at tanks to try to destroy them. Because the vast majority of the time 1 shot will NOT do the trick.

So let's look at Armour Penetration and see why.

S8 vs AV 10 = 1 in 6 chance to do nothing. 1 in 6 chance to glance. 4 in 6 chance to penetrate.
S8 vs AV 11 = 2 in 6 chance to do nothing. 1 in 6 chance to glance. 3 in 6 chance to penetrate.
S8 vs AV 12 = 3 in 6 chance to do nothing. 1 in 6 chance to glance. 2 in 6 chance to penetrate.
S8 vs AV 13 = 4 in 6 chance to do nothing. 1 in 6 chance to glance. 1 in 6 chance to penetrate.
S8 vs AV 14 = 5 in 6 chance to do nothing. 1 in 6 chance to glance.

Most vehicles in the game also happen to be AV 12! Which means that half the time your single shot will do NOTHING to 'em. Most players aren't stupid enough to let you shoot their rear/side armours. So that against a very very large number of vehicles you will be forced to confront their Armour 13+ front armor. Meaning you have a 1/6 chance to penetrate. And odds are heavily against you doing NOTHING at all.

3. So let's say you do get a penetrating hit! Yay, congratulations. Now you roll on the damage chart. And guess what? you have a 2 in 6 chance of destroying the vehicle! So this is not even a guarantee after all the trouble of rolling to scatter, then rolling to penetrate.

4. Let's recap a little shall we. Let's say in total a barbed strangler has a 40% chance to HIT a vehicle (this is including the 1/3 chance to land a HIT on the scatter die). This means you need to pump 3 shots at a vehicle to at least hit with 1 of those shots.

3 Barbed Strangler Shots = 1 hit.

So now the question is how many hits do you need to penetrate? Looking at what I posted earlier.

AV 10 = 1 hit to pen.
AV 11 = 2 hits to pen.
AV 12 = 3 hit to pen.
AV 13 = 6 hit to pen.
AV 14 = Impossible to Pen.

And after penetrating, how many penetrating hits do you need to wreck/blow up a vehicle? Well since you will get this result 1/3rd of the time that means you need 3 penetrating hits to expect a blown up vehicle. In other words....

Barbed Strangler vs AV 10 needs to fire 9 Shots to Score 3 Penetrating Hits one of which should destroy the vehicle!
Barbed Strangler vs AV 11 needs to fire 18 Shots to Score 3 Penetrating Hits one of which should destroy the vehicle!
Barbed Strangler vs AV 12 needs to fire 27 Shots to Score 3 Penetrating Hits one of which should destroy the vehicle!
Barbed Strangler vs AV 13 needs to fire 54 Shots to Score 3 Penetrating Hits one of which should destroy the vehicle!
Barbed Strangler vs AV 14 needs to fire 18 shots to score 1 Glancing Hit! (ridiculous)

So now that we've seen how much the barbed strangler totally sucks at AT and should only be a 'secondary' AT choice. Let's take a look at the Venom Cannon what I believe is our most reliable anti-tank. (mind you tank suppression is just as useful as wrecking/exploding the tank in most cases)

Venom Cannon s10 vs AV 10 = Auto Glances
Venom Cannon s10 vs AV 11 = Auto Glances
Venom Cannon s10 vs AV 12 = 1 in 6 chance to do nothing. 5 in 6 chance to glance.
Venom Cannon s10 vs AV 13 = 2 in 6 chance to do nothing. 4 in 6 chance to glance.
Venom Cannon s10 vs AV 14 = 3 in 6 chance to do nothing. 3 in 6 chance to glance.

The goal of the venom cannon is NEVER to destroy a vehicle. However just so we know. A standard 1 weapon vehicle (which includes most of 40k's vehicles) need to get 3 armament destroyed/immobilised results to be destroyed by glancing. You have a 1 in 3 chance to get armament destroyed/immobilised results off a glancing hit, thus you will need 9 glancing hits to destroy a vehicle. Not really something ANYONE should look forward to.

Venom Cannon on a fex fires x2 S10 shots. With enhanced senses of course at BS 3, you hit 50% of the time. So every time you fire you should get 1 hit on average. With this in mind let's see how many shots it takes just like we did with the Barbed Strangler.
Note: Remember that the number of shots required by the venom cannon should be divided by 2! Because you get 2 shots every time you fire it! So for example:

VC vs AV 10 needs 18 shots to score 9 Glancing Hits to destroy a vehicle.

- This means that vs AV 10 a venom cannon needs to shoot 9 times not 18. And will land 9 auto-glancing hits that should suffice to wreck an AV 10 vehicle. The funny thing about it. is that the barbed strangler needs 9 shots as well to wreck an AV 10 vehicle. Isn't that interesting?

So let's continue to compare

VC vs AV 10 needs to fire 18 shots to score 9 Glancing Hits to destroy a vehicle.
VC vs AV 11 needs to fire 18 shots to score 9 Glancing Hits to destroy a vehicle.
VC vs AV 12 needs to fire 22/24 shots to get 11/12 hits, to score 9/10 Glancing Hits to destroy a vehicle.
VC vs AV 13 needs to fire 30 shots to get 15 hits, to score 10 Glancing Hits to destroy a vehicle.
VC vs AV 14 needs to fire 36 shots to get 18 hits, to score 9 Glancing Hits to destroy a vehicle.


So let's compare both results now:
Barbed Strangler vs AV 10 needs to fire 9 Shots to Score 3 Penetrating Hits one of which should destroy the vehicle!
Barbed Strangler vs AV 11 needs to fire 18 Shots to Score 3 Penetrating Hits one of which should destroy the vehicle!
Barbed Strangler vs AV 12 needs to fire 27 Shots to Score 3 Penetrating Hits one of which should destroy the vehicle!
Barbed Strangler vs AV 13 needs to fire 54 Shots to Score 3 Penetrating Hits one of which should destroy the vehicle!
Barbed Strangler vs AV 14 needs to fire 18 shots to score 1 Glancing Hit! (ridiculous)

VC vs AV 10 needs to fire 18 shots to score 9 Glancing Hits to destroy a vehicle.
VC vs AV 11 needs to fire 18 shots to score 9 Glancing Hits to destroy a vehicle.
VC vs AV 12 needs to fire 22/24 shots to get 11/12 hits, to score 9/10 Glancing Hits to destroy a vehicle.
VC vs AV 13 needs to fire 30 shots to get 15 hits, to score 10 Glancing Hits to destroy a vehicle.
VC vs AV 14 needs to fire 36 shots to get 18 hits, to score 9 Glancing Hits to destroy a vehicle.

- NOTE - This is assuming that the strangler needs 3 shots to score a hit which is usually the case even with improved BS. And for the venom cannon this is assuming the vehicle only has 1 weapon which is normally the case. For every extra weapon a vehicle takes you will need 3 extra glancing hits. This adds up to.

AV 10 = 6 more VC shots per weapon.
AV 11 = 6 more VC shots per weapon.
AV 12 = 6 more VC shots per weapon.
AV 13 = 9 more VC shots per weapon.
AV 14 = 12 more VC shots per weapon.


All in all the Venom Cannon is most definetly the superior AT choice for Nids at both Tank Suppresion and Tank Destroying. However you should never aim to destroy a tank with shooting it takes way too many shots.

[Deleted]

Your final statement:

"However you should never aim to destroy a tank with shooting it takes way too many shots." Says it all. Which players going to allow you 18 shots with a venom cannon of a barbed strangler. When said and done, my money on the barbed strangler as its a 36" ordinance assault weapon - which is infinitely better than a venom cannon at S10.

But then again I play Guard, so I'm a big fan of ordinance templates. Plus pinning should never be underestimated.

For me the BoomFex is the best setup, balancing a good price (that can be upgraded if needed). The key is to field plenty of them. Low AP isn't what Nids are about, so lots of shots are the way forward... additional range is essential as its the one thing the Nids lack.

So a high ranged pieplate with pinning is essential for suppressing a gunline. The fact it can scare tanks as well is a secondary but useful trait.

The Venom Cannon is just too hot, without these benefits. Useful on a gun tyrant with 3 shots and a tyrant guard maybe (he can take the heat) - but otherwise not my cup of tea.

Something neither of you mentioned was the impact of Pychic Scream on close combat. Against Orks (below 11) or high leadership characters, combining a lethal assault or pinning weapon with the psychic scream is going to be awesome. You only need to win your combat by 1 and he's facing a -4 on leadership (which statically will put the willies into any leadership)...

[akaiyou]

I actually mentioned a lot of builds around psychic scream dunno if u missed them. This one for example:

3 Zoanthrope @ 150 Pts
Psychic Scream; The Horror

- The one instance when this could possibly be useful is when fighting a CC army and you are intending to support your units in CC with Psychic Scream to help sweeping advance results. This set up will prevent your zoanthropes from being assaulted most of the time and be useful at lowering Ld. If you want synapse u can drop one scream and add synapse to one of the zoanthropes. Rating 6/10

[WestRider]

Yeah, I just touched on Scream in passing. Should have expanded on that more. One or two don't seem to do much, but it's great when you have 3 or more of them, and 4-5 form the basis of the Unholy Choir type of army, particularly the Nuke Choir, which pairs 4-5 Screams with as many Barbed Stranglers as you can cram in there to force Pinning Checks.

[Deleted]

Nice. So 2 tyrants and 3 Zoanthropes with scream, plus up to 5 Boomfexes and a couple of stranglers on the Tyrant...

Are Barbed Strangler worthwhile on Warriors - I'm thinking yes - but convince me.

[WestRider]

Apr 16, 2009 4:11:56 GMT -5 @suneokun said:

Nice. So 2 tyrants and 3 Zoanthropes with scream, plus up to 5 Boomfexes and a couple of stranglers on the Tyrant...

Are Barbed Strangler worthwhile on Warriors - I'm thinking yes - but convince me.

I'd upgrade the two heavy Fexen to SniperFexen, with Venom Cannon instead of the ScyTals, but yeah, you've got the general idea.

Stranglers on Warriors: Depends. On a Warrior, it maxes out at S4, so it's a purely Anti-Infantry Weapon instead of the multi-role gun it is on a Fex. If your Brood is mostly armed with Devourers, it's the same Strength as those are, for just a few Points more, and it gives you the possibility of racking up a truly nasty number of Hits against massed Infantry. Generally a good choice there.

If you're mostly running DeathSpitters, though, it's a harder call. You've got the joy of mass Blast Marker spam and it matches the range better, but the DeathSpitters are also useful for taking on light Vehicles, which the Strangler is pretty much useless at.

General consideration: It has the best range and potential number of hits caused of any Warrior Weapon. Hampered only by a low Strength. The upgrade cost is less than 10 Points over whatever that Warrior would normally be carrying, so it's pretty cheap.

[Deleted]

SniperFexen, is that a barbed and a venom as the two weapons?

[WestRider]

Oh, yeah, sorry, I'm used to mostly talking Nids on dedicated Nid Forums where everyone knows the Jargon. SniperFex is Venom Cannon, Barbed Strangler, Enhanced Senses, Defensive Biomorphs to taste.

[Commissar Chris]

Can any of you tell me cuz i just now recently joined nids. Do you need to have a biovore in order to use spore mines

[WestRider]

No. Broods of Spore Mines can also be taken as Fast Attack Choices. See Pg. 43 of the Nid Dex for details.