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Post by darienfaust on Jul 20, 2009 0:31:44 GMT -5
The Scout USR allows units with this rule a bonus move prior to the first turn of the player that holds the initiative, right? Does this mean that a Valk/Vend that's deployed on the table can move flat out, then when the Valk's/Vend's player's turn, move normally again?
I ask this because I can see a melta equipped Vet or SW squads getting up close and personal to enemy armor very quickly if this is completely legal.
P.S. If this is in the wrong section, I apologize. Not sure where to classify this dumb question.
P.P.S. I just realized another point. Can fast vehicles moving flat out gain a cover save like those of bikes using their turbo-boosters?
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Post by Macfeegle on Jul 20, 2009 1:19:10 GMT -5
1) Yes 2) A valid tactic 3) P.S. I have no idea if it is wrong...seems ok to me.. 4) P.P.S. I'm pretty sure they do...can someone check the rulebook in the fast vehicles and post an answer?
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Post by darienfaust on Jul 20, 2009 1:33:55 GMT -5
if they do get that cover save, then the valk's awesomeness quotient just went up for me
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Post by WestRider on Jul 20, 2009 1:36:09 GMT -5
Question 4: Only Fast Skimmers can gain that Cover Save, and it's just 4+, not the 3+ that Turbo-Boosting Bikes get.
"Shooting at Skimmers", Pg. 71.
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Post by vladimir on Jul 20, 2009 1:55:29 GMT -5
But remember that during this move, scouts must remain more than 12" away from any enemy.
The cover save for Fast vehicles moving flat out is 4+ (bikes with turbo boosters get 3+ cover save).
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Post by darienfaust on Jul 20, 2009 2:08:05 GMT -5
4+ cover save, check!
@vlad yes, that's why i ask if you can then move it once again on your regular turn. this way, you move the valk flat out on the scout move up to outside of the 12" distance, and gain the cover save. then on your turn, you move it again, bringing it to within the 12" distance for the melta-guns to gain the extra D6 for armor penetration.
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Post by Macfeegle on Jul 20, 2009 2:36:23 GMT -5
@darien...
Couple of points here. There is some debate as to whether the scout move gives you a cover save. At present the general consensus seems to be "no", but there is nothing in the rules that states otherwise..hmmm
Secondly, don't forget the Valkyrie chassis has no firing points. This means that you will either dump the troops and they move in and fire, or move the Valk, disembark troops and fire. Either way you need to be very aware of distances from other infantry, as you will be charged if within 12"-18" (allows for fleet)..
Oh and it is within 6" with melta guns for the extra D6 and 12" with Multi-meltas for the extra D6 (but as they cannot be troop carried this doesn't apply of course)
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Post by darienfaust on Jul 20, 2009 3:37:21 GMT -5
yes, good points, Macfeegle. yeah, i forgot to factor in the possibility of getting charged by other infantry. shows my inexperience in the game, huh? is it within 6"? i understood the rule for it was half range or less. which would put it at 6" and less for meltaguns. i'll have to dig up the rulebook. and this discussion is beginning to fit into this board. i truly appreciate the knowledge you guys share.
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Post by blackarmchair on Jul 20, 2009 3:57:21 GMT -5
You do get the 4+ cover save if you move flat out as any movement arising as a result of the "scouts" USR is treated as normal movement.
Pg 76 of the core rulebook: "any scouts may make a normal move. This is done exactly as in their Movement phase, except that during this move, scouts must remain more than 12" away from any enemy"
Notice it says this is done EXACTLY as in their movement phase?
P.S. Notice it also says MORE than 12" away from the enemy therefore the enemy will most likely not be able to charge you turn 1 (unless they're fleet or have a similar rule).
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Post by Macfeegle on Jul 20, 2009 5:01:03 GMT -5
blackarmchair. Thank you for the reference. I have always been on the side of the scout move being a move, nice to see someone else come down on my side of the debate. @darien. Have you considered the use of the Valk's move to dump a Vets squad with Primaris Psyker on the flank? If the Vets have Grenade Launchers, they can cause some damage, and the Psyker has decent range on his Lightning power too. Alternatively, you could drop off a Psyker Battle Squad, again a nasty surprise, especially when backed up by a Valk firing Rocket pods and Multilas. Mulitple blasts falling amongst the units on that flank, not nice. I'm loving the variety of the Valks with their abiity to Deep Strike, Outflank or Scout move. The only thing that is missing is having firing ports on the thing - would that be too much?
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Post by fatuous on Jul 20, 2009 5:32:34 GMT -5
It states in the errata on the GW site that bikes can get there turbo boost move in the scout move, so yes that is totally legit. Doesnt specifically mention skimmmers but would be the same IMO. U can take a full move, not just a 6"move.
*Rushes off to stick valk together*
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Post by Macfeegle on Jul 20, 2009 6:23:17 GMT -5
Oh, I totally agree with you Fatuous, it is just that people disagree over whether the move gives the save for moving fast. I say it does, and as blackarmchair stated, it is exactly like a normal move. I'm with the invulnerable save.. ...the great thing about moving at 12" in a Valk, you get the 4+ save AND you get to shoot one weapon plus supporting...ie, Multilas+Rocket pods. He he he! (I think that's correct...pick me up on the 12" = 4+ save please if I'm incorrect)
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2009 8:46:19 GMT -5
It would be most fun to do this with 9 Valks, even just once, for the look on your opponents face.
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Post by fatuous on Jul 20, 2009 8:50:51 GMT -5
I'm sure that i read that u do indeed get the save. but htink it was in various codex errata docs on the GW site. Will check, but pretty sure the smurf bikes may have been the example that they used.
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Post by darienfaust on Jul 20, 2009 20:49:20 GMT -5
Macfeeglethe tank hunting idea was just one of the nasty tricks I could think of with the valk's scout move. that psyker(s) drop off of yours is also a nice idea. and any thing that could throw pie plates at your enemy is a good tactic in my book!
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Post by verminard on Jul 22, 2009 10:01:32 GMT -5
It would be most fun to do this with 9 Valks, even just once, for the look on your opponents face. I would feel like an Eldar player for sure! I need to get a few Valks, they seem super sexy!
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shengami
Conscript
41st Lakonic Hoplites
Posts: 46
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Post by shengami on Jul 22, 2009 13:26:10 GMT -5
Just a little note from me here, but while the scout move/4+ invuln seems to be the case, disembarking the troops is a troop movement not a vehicle movement so I think it is a good idea to keep in mind that unless there are scouts IN the valk/vend they can not disembark as part of the scout phase thing. This is the thought that occurred to me whilst reading this thread. Next thought, Penal troops in a valk...
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Post by Macfeegle on Jul 22, 2009 17:50:03 GMT -5
shengami - you cannot disembark troops as part of a scout move. Ever. You can of course disembark them after the scout move if you have first turn and then do all the things that are allowed by disembarking prior to a vehicle moving.
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Post by ssgtdude (M.I.A) on Jul 22, 2009 17:57:01 GMT -5
shengami - you cannot disembark troops as part of a scout move. Ever. You can of course disembark them after the scout move if you have first turn and then do all the things that are allowed by disembarking prior to a vehicle moving. I need you in the store when the Tau players do this with their devil fish. Irks the bejeesus out of me every single frickin time they scout ahead and disembark from that danged thing. Point out for them to pick that crap up and they say "I'm allowed to do that as part of my scout move." They never can show me the rule that says they can.
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Post by Macfeegle on Jul 22, 2009 18:57:30 GMT -5
@sgtdude. The rule you are looking for I believe is where it says "if a unit with this ability is deployed inside a dedicated transport vehicle it confers the scout ability to the transport."
If they move and disembark that would be an invalid move as they have "transferred" the scout ability to the transport they are in and therefore do not get their own move (which disembarkation is) as well.
Also, he is only doing this with his Pathfinders right? You can try the "you moved by disembarking therefore your markerlights can't be used...if that doesn't stick, use my cheese below.
I hope that helps.
I guess you do have an alternative.
Valkyrie + HW team. Deploy, scout 24", disembark, attempt to steal the initiative (if you haven't got first turn) and then fire the HW teams....after all, they haven't actually moved in the first turn of the game really have they? Yeah, it is cheese, but so is what they are doing.
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Post by ssgtdude (M.I.A) on Jul 22, 2009 19:16:15 GMT -5
Any of the tournaments I have been in have ruled that the pregame scout is in fact a move so your cheese while is nice was shot full of holes here in the states.
I'll be sure to mention what you said about the scout move and then their movement because you are right once they disembark the vehicle looses the ability and they just made a second movement.
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Post by Macfeegle on Jul 22, 2009 19:49:44 GMT -5
@sgtdude - I was actually making the point that if they are deploying from the devilfish and then using markerlights (a heavy weapon) then they are breaking the rules anyway and the counter would be to deploy HW teams. It is cheese to answer their cheese. In other words, it stinks!
I would never actually use it unless my opponent insisted it was legal - and even then I would only play it against that opponent.
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Post by ssgtdude (M.I.A) on Jul 22, 2009 20:31:21 GMT -5
I know what you mean.
We had a guy decking out his Apothocaries on his SMurf lists.
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GuardsmanPatch
Captain
They took away my Bolter, and gave me a flashlight!
Posts: 212
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Post by GuardsmanPatch on Jul 23, 2009 1:15:57 GMT -5
Here's a Saturday-night special for you - have a couple of Special weapon squads with a 2 melta and demo charge loadout. Have one on the Valk at the start of the game, drop it off on the first turn (after you've scouted the Valk), One dead tank or enemy unit, and a problem hanging around that needs to be addressed, then send the Valk back for the second unit. And repeat.
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Post by darienfaust on Jul 24, 2009 0:56:46 GMT -5
that's the idea i had with this. tanks will definitley be the prime target. and if your squad from the valk survives, they're giong to cause problems in the enemy's back field if not addressed. he's basically fighting on 2 fronts if you get to pull of this move.
and unless the embarked troops have the scout usr as well, they can't disembark on the pre-game move. that's pretty much clear in the rule book. the cover save hopefully adds to the valk's survivability, so that even if you don't have the first turn, they'll survive long enough to disembark the passengers when your turn comes up.
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