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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2008 15:45:53 GMT -5
... for an alternative Hq
Same as per see, BUT
Musicians (i.e men with drums/ bagpipes) Ogryn Bodyguards (norg) Colnel/general-commisar options...
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Maverek
Conscript
I like to keep this handy... for close encounters.
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Post by Maverek on Mar 5, 2008 16:45:56 GMT -5
wouldnt musicians basically still be company starndards
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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2008 13:19:28 GMT -5
No, they would be used to rally a fleeing unit once per turn, i.e, a unit of guardsmen flee, if there Ld is over 7 then the musician stops them fleeing...
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Post by mardaddy on Mar 6, 2008 15:57:24 GMT -5
My apologies.
At first I was going to post, no friggin way; musicians are far too archaiac and would be completely out of place on a 40k battlefield.
Then stepped back and recalled that 40k is all just a science/fantasy universe anyways. Takin’ it waaaay too seriously, here.
Hell, the IG Praetorian HQ sculpts included a bugler. So why not?
Not sure about the rest of the HQ… Ogryn bodyguards will make some doctrines off limits. Maybe making a musician part of the 4-man team the HSO takes would be better, but make it take up the second HQ spot (no Commissars/Priests as a counterbalance.)
Draft up some house rules, playtest and post results, dude.
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Post by Turtleboy(AWOL) on Mar 7, 2008 0:18:34 GMT -5
40k is really a mixed genre, in all truth. on one end you have spaceships and powerarmor, but on the other, un-represented end, you have tithes of soldiers drafted into the IG or called up from a feudal backwater feral world which sees soldiers arriving to the modern 40k warfront in studded leather armor with bows on horseback.
in the 40k RPG "Dark Heresy" you can literally buy a musket to shoot people with - yeah..flint lock black powder weaponry baby...makes you really cringe to think about a rampaging carnifex now huh?
point is, musicians as standard bearers are not at all out of place - heck you might even consider making him the 'master vox' - as long as his music can be heard, the officers leadership can be conveyed to any unit.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2008 5:39:49 GMT -5
Check out the following GW listing for Gaunts ghosts: uk.games-workshop.com/imperialguard/gaunts-ghosts/If you open the PDF for "Gaunt's Ghosts extra characters 2" and scan down to page 2 and examine the entry for Brin Milo ... Hmm tanith pipes - how strange...! Got ya back TB.
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Post by Rolling Thunder on Mar 7, 2008 9:57:20 GMT -5
Not a bad idea- musicans and blackpowder. Goodbye anything that gets in those men's way.
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Post by Turtleboy(AWOL) on Mar 7, 2008 15:53:41 GMT -5
throw in some medieval platemail armor for the 'carapace armor' and you'd be rockin ^_^
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Post by mardaddy on Mar 7, 2008 16:45:46 GMT -5
;D ;D ;D
Oh, man... gotta do it just for the laughs...
Empire Knights in plate (for the carapace armor) on foot converted to carry Hellguns and Assault Weapons as Storm Troopers from some back-waters planet....
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Post by Turtleboy(AWOL) on Mar 8, 2008 14:25:15 GMT -5
I really wanna get some necromunda minis just for the autoguns/autopistols... there are some AWESOME chaos minis from the fantasy range that have platemail and big fur cloaks - with a bit of tweaking they would make amazingly cool minis for a sub-imperial tech IG army. I'm thinking warrior weapons for the autogun or laspistol and ccw with the platemail obviously giving the carapace armor doctrine a place in the list. roughriders cuz there's some chaos minis with that heavy plate armor in the fantasy range that are mounted on horseback - there's your counterassault unit. I think the biggest problem would be getting a squatting pose or two to do the heavy weapons with.. I could see heavy stubbers (with the fluff that they fire manstopper rounds so they count as heavy bolters) as a squad heavy weapon and maybe some steel legion style missile launchers here and there for the good ol' fashion low tech rpg appeal. problem with this army comes when you look at armored support. not many horse drawn tanks!! .... though that would be a pretty awesome thing to convert I dunno what I'd do to keep the theme regarding vehicles.
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Post by Mabus on Mar 8, 2008 15:12:10 GMT -5
I'm sure you could rustle something up, with perhaps the Warhammer fantasy siege tower parts, the manager in my local GW has done just that, he has stuck some planks of wood all over a Baneblade to represent some low tech orks looting it. You could also use an empire Steam Tank at a push.....
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Post by twerd on Mar 8, 2008 19:20:45 GMT -5
a better steam tank like have a chirema chasis and add the citys of death mechanus pipe and other stuff like the fan for coal power or somthing like perhaps.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2008 13:44:41 GMT -5
Loving this idea. You could have whole companies of close combat and shotgun rough riders harrasing the enemy. Bezeker Orgryns. I'd also recommend a "rifles regiment" like Bernard Cornwall's "Sharpe's rifles". They could come in green livery and be kitted out with black powder sniper rifles. I love the heavy stubber idea and to finish off: www.forgeworld.co.uk/acatalog/IMPERIAL_GUARD_EMPLACEMENTS.htmlGotta dig those artillery pieces!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2008 14:04:17 GMT -5
Another idea: Specialists, in each command squad, the officer can select an extra charector, who is a specialist (e/g, demoliton expert, sniper sharpshooter, dog handler etc.)
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Post by Turtleboy(AWOL) on Mar 11, 2008 3:13:40 GMT -5
I've been really studying the imperium and the minds and psychology of the human race in the 41st millenium (mainly drawing my fluff from the 'Dark Heresy' 40k paper and pencil RPG they've recently released a big ol' main book for) and boy has it been an eye opener! here's some of my discoveries: The Imperial Creed - this is what your commissars do for a living basically; they enforce the imperial creed. the imperial creed is basically the manual for what an upstanding imperial citizen should be like. it discourages new expansive thought, deeming it dangerous, and encourages conformity and non-questioning obedience to imperial law. imperial law is as convoluted at times as the vast expanse of cogitator stations that is the administratum! knowledge is restricted - some would argue that it is OVER restricted. knowledge is power and thus it must be kept from the imperial citizen lest they use it unwisely and create instability. knowledge is for the privaledged few and not for the masses. things like this lead to the next point.... Technology and Religion - the 'how it works' of all but the simplest devices are frankly beyond the average citizen of the imperium. thusly, superstition has taken a front seat and the emergence of the belief of 'machine spirits' has been long since supported by the adeptus mechanicus who, going off the imperial creed and respecting the law of how knowledge must be restricted, are commonly known to use lines like 'give me that xenos artifact lest it's spirit damn your soul to oblivion!' to which the common imperial citizen unquestioningly says 'ok, here.' and hands it over. the fact that all technological knowledge has been hoarded by the adeptus mechanicus and the acknowledgement that the machine cult is the ONLY religion accepted (albeit grudgingly) other than the imperial cult within the imperium is proof that the imperial creed is successful across the imperium. so we have the cult of the machine god, but what of the imperial cult? the imperial cult is THE religion of the imperium. it preaches faith in the god-emporer of man and that a citizens faith in their god-emporer is required for the galaxy to continue to exist. it is accepted truth that the imperium is the only thing standing in the way of the rest of the galaxy driving mankind to find a new home on the 'extinct species' list, so the ecclesiarchy, I'm sure, uses the fact that mankind lives on as a form of proof that faith is real. what does the adeptus ministorum aka the ecclesiarchy do? it strengthens the common imperial citizens faith in the imperium, which in turn feeds the fires of the imperial creed - obedience without question and all that rhetoric. lets get back to the technology aspect a bit though. a yo-yo is more than 'the simplest of mechanical devices' so it is to be considered as so advanced that it is considered holy (if purchased from an imperial vendor) or unholy (if looted by a soldier ransacking the ruins of a residential hab on a world that had been occupied by the tau). it is believed to have a spirit that must be appeased (I'm sure with a rite of winding, or re-winding if the spirit seems uncooporative). and is accorded all the superstitions of a "magical" device. now imagine a whole world where if anything breaks, the only ones with the power to fix it are the adepts of the cult of the machine god. knowledge is indeed power, but how can mankind expect to stave off the natural entropy of time? knowledge is forgotten because it is known and jealously hoarded by only the few and not the masses...the amount of technology grows but the amount of tech priests does not - soon the world is full of broken things that no one has the time to fix due to more important matters - or what if the tech priests are called off to fix leman russes? what then? the machine spirits of all the tech devices across the world suddenly begin to become un-appeasable and, without the administrations of the adeptus mechanicus, all the tech begins to become worthless non-working junk. all the while the planet is ever faithful to their god-emporer and the imperium and blindly carrying on, dependant on the imperium for everything - even more so now that the tech priests have left and must be replaced because no one knows how to get more tech priests - it is something the imperium does! quite a bit of info there... makes you look at your imperial guardsmen a bit differently eh? gives a reason for the commissar and priest to be so vitally important as to see GW give them their own individual fully fleshed out codex entry. yet how many of us use these units? fluff-wise every army should have them after coming to understand this! who WOULDN'T have a commissar to uphold the imperial creed in their unit? who WOULDN'T welcome a priest of the ecclesiarchy to further their soldiers morale and to protect as he or she travelled with the unit spreading faith in the imperial cult to feral backwater people who's faith is lax...would it not be >heresy< to do anything but travel with >at least< one priest in your army? and techpriest enginseers...OMG...this IS the adeptus mechanicus, given form on the battlefield...if you have vehicles...imagine a world where your troopers have absolutely no clue how to even begin to fix their vehicles...if one throws a track...uh..."we walk right sir?" .. all truly fluffy armies should have a techpriest enginseer mounted in his own personal chimera - straight up. otherwise how do you handle battlefield repairs of vehicles that break down? engine overheats? tracks thrown? turret malfunctions? etc...it's all the governance of that one model - the techpriest enginseer. if he's not there then you're saying 'yeah we get out and walk when our tanks break - we just kinda abandon 'em.' ofcourse there is the standpoint of 'yeah the techpriest enginseer is too valuable an asset to risk in combat so he hangs back and comes in after the battle when it's safe' which is totally cool too - hey we cant throw all our points into fluff - but realizing the fluff behind the army is a pretty cool thing in my opinion...and understanding the world in which we play is a really awesome way to make an army that just screams about the intensity of the 40k reality. anyway yeah... I forgot what I was gonna say originally
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2008 16:18:58 GMT -5
With you all the way TB, however why are commissars 40pts. They never justify the price. Why are techpriest enginseers not advisors? Why are psykers (which are pretty rubbish) and Priests (which have obvious flaws) restricted troops...?
The irony is that in personalising your army you immediately exclude the majority of these interesting troop types. Psykers and Priests are good at the price, but they ain't worth a doctrine. Are Techpriests better than Stormies, Orgyrns, Rats or Vets, nah. Hence they are NEVER taken.
To my mind, the advisors shouldn't be restricted troops and techpriests should be available as advisors (albeit without a merry band of servitors along). Thoughts appreciated...
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Post by Turtleboy(AWOL) on Mar 25, 2008 16:45:38 GMT -5
I agree with you - I find psykers really useful in buffing out the 5+ save section of my command squad so that the 4+ saves take less damage as wounds wrap around and double up on the 5+ majority saves...having a psyker that takes 2 wounds as he dies, preventing a wound die from ending up in my valuable 4+ land (priest & commissar with eviscerator/powerfist) is reallyreally nice, but ultimately not worth a doctrine point.
I totally agree with what you're saying about whether a techpriest is better than stormies or rats..it's not even a contest, but a techpriest that can walk along behind a baneblade and repair something on it on a 2+ every turn is pretty awesome...again..not worth a doctrine point though (though maybe in an apocolypse game with a baneblade it might be worth it to keep that baneblade cannon operational).
unfortunately it kinda seems like it's either no doctrines and get all kinds of cool stuff but have infantry that generally fails harder than normal (which hurts doubly since all the cool stuff is also expensive) or have solid aspects of your list due to doctrines that normally wouldn't be there, but then you get no fun stuff.
I think if they just gave guard infantry the die hards rule as stock, then I'd be happy and never take doctrines again and enjoy all my fun units ^_^ (fat chance though!)
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2008 19:58:45 GMT -5
;D ;D ;D Oh, man... gotta do it just for the laughs... Empire Knights in plate (for the carapace armor) on foot converted to carry Hellguns and Assault Weapons as Storm Troopers from some back-waters planet.... I did something similar a while back, they were supposed to be knightly sergeants, take a look! Yea..I know they don't have plate armor but perhaps I'll try to GS it
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2008 9:59:53 GMT -5
Further to the idea of the creed and colour of the imperium. I understand from the horus heresy novels that after imperial history works like this:
Age of Enlightenment: Lots of technology and most of GW Imperial technology developed, power armour, boltguns etc etc. STC (Standard Template thingies) developed with "create" all the technology ever required for every outpost of humans. Effectively, the "how to" isn't prioritised by humanity at large and is horded by a few on Earth. Age of Strife: Everybody disconnected. Dependent on failing STCs, Earth goes mad, few get shot, most how to gets lost or "taken to mars", as you do. Age of the First Crusade: Emporer finds tech, makes SMurfs, conquers Solar system, alliance with the new Bill Gates Intellectual Property Right (IPR) academy on mars. Kicks of a crusade (as you do...!) Horus Heresy: Horus finds some STC just before going loco. He kills the owners and take it. Blah blah ... corruption etc, Horus dies, Emporer becomes Imperial god.
And then nothing really changes... I think that most Guard would be happy to jury rig their kit for survival and that the rules can't really represent the "indivdual" nature of the guard. Jus read Gaunt's ghosts (hotshot lasgun packs, lightweight heavy bolters) and you will always have your fetishists and tinkerers. The adeptus mechanicus (AM) are there are the guardians of the STC built units. AM STC built kit is better, but the imperium can create their own (hence why most PDFs have homebuilt Chimera and Leman Russ). It depends what IPRs been released and to what level.
Additionally, while your 41st millenium PC World might be run by a Enginseer, the labour is all servitor related. I would imagine that a couple of Enginseer (or Techmarines) in a battallion would overview 100's of servitors across half a planet. Servicing rifles, cleaning and mantaining tanks and dancing the robot when no ones looking...
Therefore... a techpriest Enginseer is an adviser that allows the inclusion of a squad of 4-8 servitors as a elites choice. This servitors unit is effectively a reclamation and repair crew (and therefore replaceable in the AM is sacred type of thing) controlled remotely by the Enginseer for battlefield work and have to be made up of 50% basic servitor and 50% gun/CC servitor.
This strikes me as a better fluff and battlefield option.
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