Post by Turtleboy(AWOL) on Mar 24, 2008 6:30:35 GMT -5
I had a great experiment with the beginning of my "power command squad" tonight but it ultimately impressed upon me that throwing my command squads, no matter how tooled up they are into melee, is a last resort. a form of "we'll take some of you with us!!" type glorious death move.
my question is this: how does the IG win against an army made to bumrush and spend 5 out of 6 turns in melee.
I've taken a look at the answer "shoot alot." and in my experience, my guard armies shooting is not effective enough to turn the tide of an onrushing horde of enemies.
it's for this reason, that my new guard army project is set to include no less than 3 hellhounds. I firmly believe they are one of, if not the most devastating unit in the IG arsenal. not only do you get the inferno cannon but you get an extra heavy bolter and heavy stubber too. you could literally bolt on a hunter killer and still be able to fire that too while unloading with the entire arsenal on the tank, though due to the hellhounds anti infantry role, I question whether the points for a HK missile addon are justified.
3 hellhounds gives some resistence to 'nid and orc armies and can force enough saves off a heavy infantry army to justify it's presence on the field.
taking that as an 'aside' the main point I want to address in the thread is how I can survive the beating that a 150 orcs in 1500pts army can field with my infantry. at a certain point it's a numbers game. I need 4+ then 5+ to force their sad armor save and they need 3+ 3+ (on the charge) or 3+ then 4+ to force my sad armor save and that's if I've managed to absorb the waagh and stall them in my lines (I think those are the right numbers). anyway, the numbers are just so solidly in the orcs favor that it makes the game of attrition a brutal thing that chews up my troops where numbers just aren't on my side.
I identified what is needed to be able to beat a horde melee army, and it is best described as "the ability to wade thru all that crud *pointing to the 150 orcs on the table charging headlong at my lines*"
what do we have that enables us to 'wade thru a horde of orc?'
ogryn come to mind, but one orc mob with a powerklaw is the end of an ogryn squad in short order. still, while that mob of ogryn is on their feet, that's a decent number of high strength hits they're dishing out even though their attacks dished out isn't as high as I'd really want it to be. at least the attacks they dish out are high strength and wound easily, forcing saves that for a horde nid or orc army are hard to make.
so that's an option. anyone had experience with ogryn?
rough riders seem like the discount ogryn in a way. half the price for a unit that can actually sieze the initiative and stick it to the orcs before they can get a charge off. that's an awesome thing. when they land a strike, they will drop in wounds on a 3+ vs. orcs with their hunting lances (awesome) but the drawback comes when you look at the number of attacks they dish out.... 1 per horse. the extra +1 attack for charging helps a TON (double the amount of models killed? yes please!) but these poor sods are pretty much done after their charge has landed.
still though, 110pts buys me everthing I need with these guys. I get the ability to achieve first blood which tosses the initiative in my favor regarding who is doing the charging and who's receiving the charge and while I do that I get to strike first in melee AND toss 20x Str5 power weapon attacks. the unit is cheap so when it then proceeds to get mauled by the survivors, it's really no biggie. the reusability value of these guys is basically nil so they've done their job by the time they're done rocking out their attacks at Init5.
sucky part about this is that it reduces my ability to field mass amounts of hellhounds as these guys require the all too valuable fast attack slots.
anyone with experience on the rough riders care to weigh in?
kinda wild thought, but I keep thinking about the grey knights, are they too expensive though? when I read their profile they really speak to me of what it takes to be able to 'wade thru the ocean of green' that the orcs are. with a squad of grey knight marines, I swing first, even if they catch me with a waagh. I hit on 3+ and wound on 2+ with a couple attacks per model. whatever the orcs have left at that point gets to swing which hits me on 4+ and wounds me on 4+ if they catch me on the waagh, but more likely, I absorb the waagh with my IG and they're wounding me on 5+. 4+ followed by 4+ is only 25% of attacks making it to my 3+ armor save and that's in a worst case scenario with me being able to brain the crud outta them before they can even attack (again, I think these are accurate numbers, but I'm not sure).
beyond all this, I can buy a holy relic for +attacks with my grey knights for when I just got a ton of stuff to kill to clear my kill zone. this is a great way to try and 'snipe a powerklaw out of a mob' turn at most 20 attacks into 30, maybe even more from nearby units also being effected by the relic...
with an army like orcs, I should be smart enough to prevent my grey knights from being waagh'ed but if they do waagh the knights, then 25% of attacks getting thru to my armor is still a painful sounding thing and even with a 3+ save, I'm gonna quickly lose 'smackdown capability' with the grey knights squad. the upside is that if I'm smart enough to keep the knights from being waaghed on, only 1 or 2 attacks in 10 from the orcs are gonna land and force saves from the knights. with their ability to strike first and strike HARD, this seems quite tolerable. these guys really seem to be the best option so far as they seem to have that resilience I'm looking for to qualify as a unit that can 'wade thru that ocean of greenskin.'
roughriders seem to be most hampered by their average guardsman weapon skill. a grey knight's weapon skill is EXCEPTIONAL - it puts regular marines to shame and is a real shining point in the grey knights statline. it equates to "ownage" vs. any rank and file enemies out there. that coupled with their staying power make them hard to pass up.
arco-flagellants from the witchhunters codex seem interesting too if a bit random and prone to self destructing...
for about the price of a grey knight and a half, we can get a unit that's hard to describe - "combat monster with a tendency to pop and fall over dead of its own accord" is my best description of it. they're inferior to grey knights in melee by a bit (don't get that sweet 3+ to hit, but they deny the enemy the 3+ too, so that ain't bad) but they're TOUGH! it literally makes the orcs feel like THEY're the guardsmen. an orc (not charging) ends up needing 4+ 6+ (I think) to force a save and then I get a 4+ even vs. the powerklaw (though the powerklaw still wounds on 2+ ofcourse) - that aint bad. the offense is along the lines of d6 space marine strength power weapon attacks per dude in the squad. if you roll bad, the thing gets its attacks but falls over dead at the end of the combat round as an extra casualty
so we're looking at 4+ 4+ with d6 attacks per dude (still, plus 1 for charging too) but the tendency to pop and die at random times...
the orcs on the other hand get 4+ 6+ and no matter what, we get our 4+ save
kinda expensive and not too 'killy.' that's my initial opinion. anyone have experience with these guys?
so I've been kinda rollin' dice to get a feel for things as I go on what unit can do what power-level wise, and it seems like the best of what the imperium has to offer (that IG has access to) is still a losing battle vs. the orcs. they are so cheap in point cost that killing enough of them to make our expensive melee unit's losses pan out is nigh impossible.
it stands to reason that orcs cannot be beat at their own game. so what's the alternative?
another thought about the grey knights: I haven't really been thinking about how utterly devastating a whole squad of storm bolters would be on an advancing orc force...3+ to hit, 4+ to wound, no save allowed means that orc player can start packin his trays full of casualties cuz I'm dishin' out 20 dice of 3+/4+ pain every round. I guess statistically that only averages out to 5 or 6 dead orcs for every turn I get to dump rounds into them but it goes a long way to set things in a favorable light for the damage a squad of knights can do when it comes to their overall "points killed vs. points lost from the squad getting dragged down by the orcs" ratio.
my only thought about grey knights is that I'm loathe to use them as they're sooooo rare and it seems unfluffy to use them in anything short of a 'omg this world has been fully transposed with the warp and demons are EVERYWHERE - the demon lord must be killed on his throne of wailing agonized half dead victims now!!' using them vs. orcs seems like a mockery of the fluff which I really want to adhere to with this army.
anyway, I'm open to thoughts
my question is this: how does the IG win against an army made to bumrush and spend 5 out of 6 turns in melee.
I've taken a look at the answer "shoot alot." and in my experience, my guard armies shooting is not effective enough to turn the tide of an onrushing horde of enemies.
it's for this reason, that my new guard army project is set to include no less than 3 hellhounds. I firmly believe they are one of, if not the most devastating unit in the IG arsenal. not only do you get the inferno cannon but you get an extra heavy bolter and heavy stubber too. you could literally bolt on a hunter killer and still be able to fire that too while unloading with the entire arsenal on the tank, though due to the hellhounds anti infantry role, I question whether the points for a HK missile addon are justified.
3 hellhounds gives some resistence to 'nid and orc armies and can force enough saves off a heavy infantry army to justify it's presence on the field.
taking that as an 'aside' the main point I want to address in the thread is how I can survive the beating that a 150 orcs in 1500pts army can field with my infantry. at a certain point it's a numbers game. I need 4+ then 5+ to force their sad armor save and they need 3+ 3+ (on the charge) or 3+ then 4+ to force my sad armor save and that's if I've managed to absorb the waagh and stall them in my lines (I think those are the right numbers). anyway, the numbers are just so solidly in the orcs favor that it makes the game of attrition a brutal thing that chews up my troops where numbers just aren't on my side.
I identified what is needed to be able to beat a horde melee army, and it is best described as "the ability to wade thru all that crud *pointing to the 150 orcs on the table charging headlong at my lines*"
what do we have that enables us to 'wade thru a horde of orc?'
ogryn come to mind, but one orc mob with a powerklaw is the end of an ogryn squad in short order. still, while that mob of ogryn is on their feet, that's a decent number of high strength hits they're dishing out even though their attacks dished out isn't as high as I'd really want it to be. at least the attacks they dish out are high strength and wound easily, forcing saves that for a horde nid or orc army are hard to make.
so that's an option. anyone had experience with ogryn?
rough riders seem like the discount ogryn in a way. half the price for a unit that can actually sieze the initiative and stick it to the orcs before they can get a charge off. that's an awesome thing. when they land a strike, they will drop in wounds on a 3+ vs. orcs with their hunting lances (awesome) but the drawback comes when you look at the number of attacks they dish out.... 1 per horse. the extra +1 attack for charging helps a TON (double the amount of models killed? yes please!) but these poor sods are pretty much done after their charge has landed.
still though, 110pts buys me everthing I need with these guys. I get the ability to achieve first blood which tosses the initiative in my favor regarding who is doing the charging and who's receiving the charge and while I do that I get to strike first in melee AND toss 20x Str5 power weapon attacks. the unit is cheap so when it then proceeds to get mauled by the survivors, it's really no biggie. the reusability value of these guys is basically nil so they've done their job by the time they're done rocking out their attacks at Init5.
sucky part about this is that it reduces my ability to field mass amounts of hellhounds as these guys require the all too valuable fast attack slots.
anyone with experience on the rough riders care to weigh in?
kinda wild thought, but I keep thinking about the grey knights, are they too expensive though? when I read their profile they really speak to me of what it takes to be able to 'wade thru the ocean of green' that the orcs are. with a squad of grey knight marines, I swing first, even if they catch me with a waagh. I hit on 3+ and wound on 2+ with a couple attacks per model. whatever the orcs have left at that point gets to swing which hits me on 4+ and wounds me on 4+ if they catch me on the waagh, but more likely, I absorb the waagh with my IG and they're wounding me on 5+. 4+ followed by 4+ is only 25% of attacks making it to my 3+ armor save and that's in a worst case scenario with me being able to brain the crud outta them before they can even attack (again, I think these are accurate numbers, but I'm not sure).
beyond all this, I can buy a holy relic for +attacks with my grey knights for when I just got a ton of stuff to kill to clear my kill zone. this is a great way to try and 'snipe a powerklaw out of a mob' turn at most 20 attacks into 30, maybe even more from nearby units also being effected by the relic...
with an army like orcs, I should be smart enough to prevent my grey knights from being waagh'ed but if they do waagh the knights, then 25% of attacks getting thru to my armor is still a painful sounding thing and even with a 3+ save, I'm gonna quickly lose 'smackdown capability' with the grey knights squad. the upside is that if I'm smart enough to keep the knights from being waaghed on, only 1 or 2 attacks in 10 from the orcs are gonna land and force saves from the knights. with their ability to strike first and strike HARD, this seems quite tolerable. these guys really seem to be the best option so far as they seem to have that resilience I'm looking for to qualify as a unit that can 'wade thru that ocean of greenskin.'
roughriders seem to be most hampered by their average guardsman weapon skill. a grey knight's weapon skill is EXCEPTIONAL - it puts regular marines to shame and is a real shining point in the grey knights statline. it equates to "ownage" vs. any rank and file enemies out there. that coupled with their staying power make them hard to pass up.
arco-flagellants from the witchhunters codex seem interesting too if a bit random and prone to self destructing...
for about the price of a grey knight and a half, we can get a unit that's hard to describe - "combat monster with a tendency to pop and fall over dead of its own accord" is my best description of it. they're inferior to grey knights in melee by a bit (don't get that sweet 3+ to hit, but they deny the enemy the 3+ too, so that ain't bad) but they're TOUGH! it literally makes the orcs feel like THEY're the guardsmen. an orc (not charging) ends up needing 4+ 6+ (I think) to force a save and then I get a 4+ even vs. the powerklaw (though the powerklaw still wounds on 2+ ofcourse) - that aint bad. the offense is along the lines of d6 space marine strength power weapon attacks per dude in the squad. if you roll bad, the thing gets its attacks but falls over dead at the end of the combat round as an extra casualty
so we're looking at 4+ 4+ with d6 attacks per dude (still, plus 1 for charging too) but the tendency to pop and die at random times...
the orcs on the other hand get 4+ 6+ and no matter what, we get our 4+ save
kinda expensive and not too 'killy.' that's my initial opinion. anyone have experience with these guys?
so I've been kinda rollin' dice to get a feel for things as I go on what unit can do what power-level wise, and it seems like the best of what the imperium has to offer (that IG has access to) is still a losing battle vs. the orcs. they are so cheap in point cost that killing enough of them to make our expensive melee unit's losses pan out is nigh impossible.
it stands to reason that orcs cannot be beat at their own game. so what's the alternative?
another thought about the grey knights: I haven't really been thinking about how utterly devastating a whole squad of storm bolters would be on an advancing orc force...3+ to hit, 4+ to wound, no save allowed means that orc player can start packin his trays full of casualties cuz I'm dishin' out 20 dice of 3+/4+ pain every round. I guess statistically that only averages out to 5 or 6 dead orcs for every turn I get to dump rounds into them but it goes a long way to set things in a favorable light for the damage a squad of knights can do when it comes to their overall "points killed vs. points lost from the squad getting dragged down by the orcs" ratio.
my only thought about grey knights is that I'm loathe to use them as they're sooooo rare and it seems unfluffy to use them in anything short of a 'omg this world has been fully transposed with the warp and demons are EVERYWHERE - the demon lord must be killed on his throne of wailing agonized half dead victims now!!' using them vs. orcs seems like a mockery of the fluff which I really want to adhere to with this army.
anyway, I'm open to thoughts
;D