Thunder Fire Cannons and kill points

[jeytryon]

This may have been addressed already but I couldn't find it using the search. how many kill points are in a thunderfire cannon unit?

[Ymmot (M.I.A)]

One killpoint.

The techmarine and the cannon are a single unit.

[jeytryon]

true but the techmarrine is also an IC, the unit fits the description of a reinue. that would make it 2 kp

[Ymmot (M.I.A)]

Read the rules for Artillery on page 55 of the 5th edition rule book.

It is a single unit, it is not a retinue.

The weapon itself is useless without the operator.

It is worth one kill point.

[jeytryon]

yeah i know what it says i have been over it several times, I also notice that it counts the unit as two models and the definition of a retinue is a unit that the IC cant leave until it is destroyed. the command unit in the previous IG codex was never worded as a retinue either but it was 2 kp, because when all that was left was te HSO he became an IC. I don't see the difference between that unit and the TFC

[Ymmot (M.I.A)]

I think you will find that most units consist of more than one model.

If the thunder fire cannon is a retinue, why doesn't it benefit from any of the advantages of being a retinue?

[jeytryon]

I'm just going off of the definition on pg 48. I don't know what benefits you are refering to, or how that has any relevance.

most units do have more than one model and if there is an IC involved he counts as 1 kp and the rest of the unit count as 1 as well.

not trying to offend anyone here, were this any other artillary you are completly right, but the fact that this is an IC it now meets the requirements to be a retinue and therefore would be 2 kps

[Ymmot (M.I.A)]

Not being singled out in close combat, not being forced to receive a wounds from shooting unless the number of wounds is equal to or exceeds the number of models in the squad.



The gun itself is uselss without the techmarine, if the marine is killed the gun is removed.

It is the cannon that isn't worth any KPs

[jeytryon]

Logiclly I would agree but, I'm just going off of definition of a reinue and the rules that are written for them.

[traxter]

since the retinue rule is under the independant character rules this does not apply here as the techmarine is not an IC as stated in marine codex and therefore can not be used in the retinue ruling. Only IC's may have a retinue, Techmarine is not an IC therefore could not possibly have a retinue.

And the fact that the artillery rule would over rule the retinue here makes it not a retinue but an artillery unit as stated in its profile and not forcing it to be something that requires an IC when there is no IC. Unless the cannon dies, techmarine becomes and IC, then rejoins his dead cannon?, and then becomes a retinue? because until those events happen the is no IC. there is No retinue.

[Gabriel Lupus]

I can see gthe point you're making jeytryon, but (somewhat sadly/annoyingly) it just counts as a single KP. On the flip side, our command squads are now only a single KP...

[jeytryon]

traxter: when you read the definition of a retinue on pg 48 you will find that all characters lose the special rule of IC until the other part of the unit is destroyed. on pg 78 of the SM codex it states that the techmarrine uses all the specail rules on pg 71 including the IC rule. the note after then only reiterates what was already written in the BRB on pg 48 where the IC rule can't be used until the cannon is destroyed.

A retinue is not a unit type as artillary is, a retinue is any unit type that is combined with an IC that the IC cannot leave until it is destroyed. the thunderfire cannon fits that perfectly.

Gabriel Lupus: the only thing I am not understanding is that I am referenceing the books here but it seems everyone has made up their minds and that it dosent matter what the rules say. was there an official GW rulling that i missed?

[Ymmot (M.I.A)]

Excpet it follows all the rules for artillery and does not give you any of the advantages of a retuine.

Say I take a bunch of wounds on an IC and a retuine...
the IC fails his saves and is killed, is the retuine then removed and considered killed as well?

No.

That is what happens to an artillery unit, it is useless without the gunner.

a gun that is destyroyed with any glancing or penning hit gives up a kill point?

Artillery weapons give up kill points all by themselves?

Where does it say that?

The gun is not the entire unit, the rules for artillery say that the unit is made up of the gun and its crew.

The techmarine is crew.



You have to kill the entire unit to get a kill point.

[jeytryon]

just cause its a crappy retinue dosent mean it isn't one, retinues have their pros and cons. take the servitors for example. if you add 3 servitors to a tech marrine and the tech dies, the servitors are then subject to mid lock and are likely to just sit there until shot to death by the enemy. thats pretty lame too but its still a retinue.

the advantage to having this type of retinue is that if there are 5 las cannon hits on the unit, it is possible (though unlikely) that the hits all fall on the cannon, where any other retinue with 2 units would have to allocate 2 on 1 and 3 on the other.

how is it fair that this artillary unit can after losing its cannon dive into a devestator squad and hide its kill point, where all other artillary units cannot.

[Ymmot (M.I.A)]

How is it fair that this artillery unit gives you a kill point for destroying the gun, when all other artillery units do not.

You know a single lascannon hit auto destroys the cannon, right?
you do not roll on the damage chart, counts as AV10, destroyed on a glancing or penning hit, and you have a 50/50 chance of hitting and killing the techmarine on a 2+

So you're saying you should get two points for killing one guy...


You think that is fair?

Mind locked servitors do not die, you have to waste shots at them to make them give up a point.

in fact they may act normally on a roll of 4+






Also take note of page 73, the cannon is listed as Wargear.
It is only a weapon.



and guess what, Ork Big Gunz count their weapons as wargear as well.

You do not get kps for destroying wargear.

[traxter]

also what you are missing is that every retinue in the game that is a true retinue currently has a model in it that has the IC special rule written right on that character. This techmarine come into play without an IC special rule, and no matter how you spin it can still not possibly be a retinue when a retinue requires an IC. But also its only 1 kp because if you kill the marine and not the gun... the gun gets removed.. why is that? surely a retinue would stay on the board without its IC in the squad wouldn't it? Oh wait a retinue doesnt have that rule, another example of it not being a retinue but guess what does have that rule. ARTILLERY!


And something i totally missed as well IT IS LISTED AS WARGEAR! argument over 1 KP.

[jeytryon]

traxter your arguement about it not being an IC is obsurd as it states in the codex he has the IC rule but only benefits from it after the gun is dead.

ymmot its actually a 2/3 chance that it will hit the gun. and i do think its fair that it give 2 kill points since there is an IC in the unit.

but the wargear thing makes sense because it would mean that there is only one thing to kill being the techmarrine.....I'm still not sold, but its good enough, for now. thanks for your help.

[Hetfiltrator]

I agree with Ymmot (Joins winning side like the shameless turn-coat he is.)

[Gabriel Lupus]

Basically, I think the main confusion here stems from the KP rules that are (incredibly briefly) listed in the "Annihilation" mission box - this and the rules for Artillery (you must destroy the entire unit - crew and gun) and the Marine Codex coming out after the rulebook (as far as I'm aware, owning and reading all the codexes, the Thunderfire Cannon is the only artillery piece that can 'potentially' have a IC as it's crew - ie he becomes IC after the gun is destoyed).

I think the whole "becomes an IC" is designed to allow the techmarine to join units - which makes sense really, but overlooks the issue this creates for artillery unit destruction. So more confirmation is needed.

The Artillery rules in the rulebook would not have considered the IC+artillery unit that the Thunderfire Cannon makes. So more confirmation is needed.

The mission rules state that KP's are awarded for IC AND their retinue. This to me is a good enough form of confirmation. Although the IC+Artillery unit of the Thunderfire Cannon may not have been predicted, the fact that the rules specifically identify [r]IC and retinues[/i] as awarding a KP each says to me that artillery that fall into this form of middle ground only give up a single KP - for the Artillery unit itself upon it's destruction. The Techmarines IC is more for the Techmarines benefit than for KP's.

I can see what you are getting at though jeytryon - it does seem like they could give 2KP's, but in my opinion, the way I'll be playing it, the majority of other people's opinions, and the RAW for the KP using mission, suggest it is just a single KP. But, if you have issues, discuss it prior to the game and agree a solution with your opponent (or roll off whatever).

[jeytryon]

I think you summed it up perfectly Gabriel. I don't think I will have any issue with the games, I can live with 1 KP, thanks for acknowledgeing my points

[ElegaicRequiem]

When in doubt, go with the most absurd option. That's what GW does.

But in this case, since it's murheens, you can save yourself even more brainpower than that, and remember that GW always rules in favor of the murheens.

[Gabriel Lupus]

Glad I could help jeytryon.

[fatuous]

I did worry that it might have been 2 when I started on my marine list, checked in store (I admit, not confirmation in anyway) and read thru the codexes and rules, and pretty certain it is only 1KP.

It isn't a retinue (niether are servitors either, they are a totally seperate unit in their own right, so would be a KP each) it is an artilery piece. You get the KP by killing the tech marine.

It is a bit grey tho........

Reg the 4th ed officers....... Yes they did, it was totally unfair, and only left in cos the new dex was coming out.