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Post by The Envoy (AWOL) on Oct 8, 2010 22:53:16 GMT -5
They're that good.
However I doubt it's as good as the Ministry version.
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Post by F.K.M on Oct 9, 2010 6:02:45 GMT -5
I'm actually really looking over the new list. I'm thinking of taking dark lances or maybe heat lances with scourges, raiders with a couple vehicle upgrades (possibly shooting after landing though that's a must have for ravagers, the ability that let's you twin-link your normal guns shot from a raider, and possibly one more), i'd take incubi for a good marine killing infantry squad, talos would be a fun unit to use against MC's if you get the instant death option (imagine the look on the MC owner's face), power through pain would be incredibly useful since the first thing your unit gets for killing a unit is 'feel no pain' which is pretty much a lifesaver for the frailty of dark eldar, i might take warriors for obvious reasons, trueborn, and hekatrix bloodbrides (they're wyches but better and have more special weapons).
I'm not sure about stuff like beast masters but the one with like 5 attacks and rending sounds pretty sweet and you can have 2 of those per beastmaster with up to 5 beastmasters in the squad. Don't know what i'd use as my archon's retinue.
I actually can't get over how nasty incubi would get after you assault something like a space marine squad and run them down. 27 WS 5 str 4 power weapon attacks on the charge without taking their squad leader into account. Then they'd all have a +3 armor save, str 4 power weapons for normal incubi, feel no pain, and anything else you may have upgraded them with. Kill another squad and they get furious charge. If you kill a 3rd then they're fearless. Drazhar might also be fun to include and make them even more badass.
Dark eldar seem to have a lot of instant death items now. Plenty of feel no pain and more for everybody too since 'power from pain' is awesome. There's a lot of poison weapons for everything.
Anybody else think it's really sick that just a couple squads of warriors or less with all their poisoned weapons could bring down stuff like a nightbringer no problem? This is without weapon upgrades or bringing them in on a raider. They'd easily cause about 13 wounds before inv. saves or armor saves. They'd make an avatar their female dog without much trouble.
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Post by Rolling Thunder on Oct 9, 2010 8:11:51 GMT -5
Raider's have an upgrade for a 5+ invulnerable save.
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Post by F.K.M on Oct 9, 2010 8:45:25 GMT -5
Maybe it's just that this is an online list and doesn't show everything but there's not a lot of anti-MEQ in the dark eldar army from what i can tell. Aside from the incubi which are really awesome at killing marines, a one use bomb, and IC's there's not much in the way of power weapons and stuff. Dunno how to handle terminators too well with this list (maybe an archon retinue). Maybe there's more to find out in the codex.
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Post by ElegaicRequiem on Oct 9, 2010 10:31:43 GMT -5
DE have always been good at killing marines with the HQ and elites. For other units, the idea is to overwhelm them while catching them wrong-footed. And I think the new reavers and raiders can do that. Let's not also forget the awesome power of a dissy ravager.
I did notice that dissies had been labeled as S5, though.
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Post by The Envoy (AWOL) on Oct 9, 2010 10:43:31 GMT -5
Yeah, Disintegrators look to have taken a bit of a hit.
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Post by Gabriel Lupus on Oct 9, 2010 11:20:10 GMT -5
I'm really not concerned about facing the DE if this is accurate. As far as I can make out, their mainstay weaponry (splinter weapons) wound on 4+. So that means S3 to my Guard then - not something that worries me too much. The special rule about gaining FnP etc also certainly don't worry me. The unit has to kill the ENTIRE enemy squad to gain these bonuses? That very rarely happens in my experience... and if it does, well, that's what massed fire power is for (well, that and autocannons ). I suppose the only worry would be if their normal infantry are scarily cheap in pts. Still, could be a fun army to fluff about with...
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Post by F.K.M on Oct 9, 2010 12:09:36 GMT -5
Weren't disintegrators previously basically plasma cannons? I don't remember if they had different firing modes. Maybe i'm thinking of a different weapon on the ravagers though.
Personally i think dark eldar could handle imperial guard and then some. If you read it and thought about some of the tactics you can basically deepstrike much of the army like raiders, ravagers, scourges, and probably more. Scourges can have heat lances or dark lances and ravagers can have dark lances. So basically you just shoot the tanks to hell. Then you deepstrike the raiders and give them some upgrades like shoot all weapons after deepstrike and re-roll to hit with regular weapons and get them close enough to shoot the enemy down. Basically at that point your guys can actually manage to shoot down squads of guardsmen and get the 'feel no pain' for eliminating squads while in the raiders. Even if plenty of the raiders die from heavy weapons fire it wouldn't matter as long as you did a huge number on the enemy tanks. Then you just let loose with everything else possibly staying in your raiders if any are left or just shooting the rest of the guardsmen down. The 'feel no pain' and even light armor should really help decrease casualties even though the imperial guard can focus a lot of fire. If you have an incubi squad or something going out there and tying up enemy infantry you'd also be doing wonderful getting 'feel no pain' for each enemy squad killed. You can assault multiple squads at once too.
I just think 'feel no pain' makes up for the low armor of dark eldar. I mean sure your armor is bad but once you kill a unit which is going to happen first for you anyway usually then you'll get 'feel no pain' and therefore become harder to kill esp. incubi. I think i've heard incubi retinue were always good (possibly as an hq retinue before) but now they're just sick with 'feel no pain' and more once they start their killing.
I haven't thought about using wyches much or the bloodbrides but i don't think killing infantry is going to be a big problem when you can focus that much firepower on your enemy. Dear god i feel sorry for assault oriented horde armies. Imagine how badly orks and nids are gonna get punked out with this. I could just have most of my force with raiders and ravagers and maybe some other skimmers. Then i could just move 12" and shoot. That way i could get in range, shoot, fall back, shoot, and constantly fall back and shoot until they're pretty much dead and then just assault them for giggles afterwards maybe. Orks would need some good ranged firepower. I hope i haven't made ork players not want to take ranged firepower again though. Lootas and tankbustas would actually be good. I don't know if nob bikers would be enough.
@gabe: Now i kind of want to challenge you to a battle with the new dark eldar. If only i could get a really good sized army. Ugh but the funds just aren't there. Plus actually getting to where you are and playing you in person would be a challenge in and of itself.
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Post by ElegaicRequiem on Oct 9, 2010 12:26:05 GMT -5
Dissies used to be:
36" S7 AP2 H1, blast or 24" S4 AP3 H3
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Post by Ymmot (M.I.A) on Oct 9, 2010 12:30:27 GMT -5
My lootas and tank bustas would tear those filmsy raiders to little pieces.
Heck, I've also hot 2 mobs of 20 shootas that could get the job done.
Meanwhile the big mek with KFF will help insure that my two battlewagons(with shootas) and three trukks(with sluggas) manage to get somewhere useful. while I keep my large mob of bikes zipping around as trouble shooters.
Might be slightly trickier with tyranids...
I'm excited about the new DE, but I'm not seeing where they are particularly OP (poison weapons is rough for armies with high T...the pain tracker thing is a neat gimmick...I donno, I reserve judgement till I see the book for myself.
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Post by F.K.M on Oct 9, 2010 12:49:08 GMT -5
As a lesson it might be a bad idea to take some daemon prince type characters against the dark eldar considering all the poison weapons.
I guess as some counters to assault terminators with storm shields and thunder hammer you could use ur-ghuls (not sure what they are but they sound like ghouls or ogryns) and they have a stat-line much better than ogryns, start off with feel no pain and furious charge, and come in a 1-5 slot in the archon's retinue.
Then there's the voidraven's void mine which is str 9 ap 2 and a large blast. Maybe if you have a few of those you can handle a terminator squad better. You have to fly straight through them to use it but it only scatters d6".
You can also just throw ordnance that's strong enough at them constantly whether it goes through their armor or not since they have a +2 armor save and a +3 inv. save.
I'm somewhat interested in the vodwing flock that the beastmasters can take 2 for each beastmaster. If they have rending and a lot of attacks they could also be useful for anti-MEQ and possibly anti-terminator though i'm sure they'd still get wasted. Something tells me they have the swarms special rule with 'flock' in their name. Maybe use some clawed fiends too. We need more info.
The last choice you'd have to resort to with those terminators is to just focus fire all the guns you have on them. The dark eldar seem to be able to throw out a lot of firepower if you get the right weapons. If you have trueborn you're allowed 2 heavy weapons and 4 special weapons. I'm not sure what those weapons could include but if you're really just frustrated with the terminators just stock up on something with a lot of shots like splinter cannons and whatever. At that point just shooting them a lot and watching the odd shot cause them to fall would be the plan.
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Post by Laughing Man on Oct 9, 2010 12:53:19 GMT -5
Current list i've though up around 2k is: Archon with soul trap, huskblade, shadow field.
incubi squad in a raider
trueborn squad with 4 blasters in a raider
2 warrior squads with dark lances in raiders
2 warrior squads with splinter cannons in raiders
1 wych squad in a raider
1 hellion squad
3 ravagers
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Post by F.K.M on Oct 9, 2010 13:01:57 GMT -5
Yeah but what would the ravagers in your list have?
They do have either disintegrators or dark lances.
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Post by Laughing Man on Oct 9, 2010 13:06:13 GMT -5
3 dark lances each
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Post by F.K.M on Oct 9, 2010 13:10:20 GMT -5
Ok. So what does the shredder do anyway? I should really find that out.
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Post by Ymmot (M.I.A) on Oct 9, 2010 13:27:21 GMT -5
Currently it is a s6 ap- 12inch blast weapon.
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Post by Laughing Man on Oct 9, 2010 13:48:48 GMT -5
It hasn't changed.
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Post by Gabriel Lupus on Oct 9, 2010 13:57:22 GMT -5
flaming, if you ever get a DE army and go to GW HQ UK (or anywhere near there), just drop me a message and my Zion Rifles will happily take you on. As for their deepstriking powers... nah, still doesn't worry me. Maybe it will be different on the field, but in theory, I'm happy with it
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Post by F.K.M on Oct 9, 2010 20:09:15 GMT -5
I'm more worried that you've probably been playing guard for forever like most people on this forum (i've played them for about 2 and a half years before i went to skaven in fantasy). However i have no experience when it comes to playing dark eldar so i'd be a bit worried if i ever faced you. Plus those DE vehicles are made out of paper. I hear dark eldar are a hard army to play with too because their frailty makes them unforgiving of mistakes. Basically if you play them wrong you can get raped over and over again.
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Post by Ymmot (M.I.A) on Oct 9, 2010 20:19:48 GMT -5
I've been playing Imperial Guard and Dark Eldar since 4th edition, the DE are very unforgiving...and at the same time I've had some of my most rewarding games with my dark eldar.
Lance spam warriors squads, lots of raiders, a tooled up HQ of doom...grabbing that flat out cover save and screening the raider with HQ and raider full of wyches with raiders full of throw away units, hauling it into position...crossing your fingers that you make those cover saves. Then all at once you hit them somewhere vital with everything you've got.
If you're lucky...the rest is just a bit of mopping up.
Otherwise it'll be your opponent hosing your guts off the walls and ceiling.
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Post by F.K.M on Oct 9, 2010 20:44:22 GMT -5
Well now that you can deep strike in a bunch of vehicles and scourges like many of the recent codexes it should be a bit easier to get them where you want and it's awesome that you can fire all weapons after deepstrike now. My biggest problem is whether i'll be going lance spam with ravagers or going for disintegrators. If i have plenty of lances my anti-heavy tank problems with guard would never be a problem with dark eldar and average armored tanks won't be too troublesome hopefully. The big problem with disintegrators is they're only str 5 ap 2 heavy 3 and even with 3 guns on each ravager that's probably just 4 dead marines and if you use it on terminators and stuff they get their invulnerable saves. My issues is that it's been nerfed from the previous stat-line. I'm thinking when they get the kit i'll use the voidraven bombers. Multiple void lances str 9 ap 2 lance and void mines str 9 ap 2 large blast d6" scatter lance. My question with the void mine is whether the d6" scatter can be effected by BS. If so it'll only scatter 2" at most and that would just be crazy and awesome. Ymmot (M.I.A): As funny as it sounds playing a game using dice and sometimes luck i generally prefer not to rely on luck for a win. That's why i'm happy with guard having plenty of guys to compensate for losses and if i lose a good unit there's always another standing by to take its place. So i hope my entire strategy doesn't just depend on me getting really lucky or getting totally hosed. Then again i wonder how marines would do with only a few really elite squads that could be devastating to lose. I don't think i'll ever get a marine army to find out though. If i ever do it'll probably be blood angels though and maybe dark angels depending on how cool their next release is. At least dark angels don't have a history filled with complete loyalty and overpowered bullnuts.
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Post by Ymmot (M.I.A) on Oct 9, 2010 21:16:39 GMT -5
Yeah...because tactics can overcome rolling nothing but 1s
I always take multiples of every unit that I need to accomplish any particular goal I want to achieve on the battlefield.
I make plans and back up plans in case my original plans fall through...
but I never forget that it's all a game of chance...
You can't force yourself to roll more 6s by being a better general.
You know, flamingkillamajig...I don't think I've seen you post any IG lists yet...
but then again I didn't look very hard.
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Post by F.K.M on Oct 10, 2010 3:23:51 GMT -5
Bad luck can be nasty esp. for some people but usually i don't have terrible luck 85% of the time. There's bad luck with some stuff (sometimes it likes to be all my ordnance too which sucks) and sometimes it's the lasguns but not as frequently. For some reason i almost always have bad luck rolling for autocannons. I'll get like 6 shots and maybe 2 will hit. I have no idea what that's about. One game in particular i'm pretty damn sure was bad luck was against a couple younger kids (probably around 13). I never want to talk about it again esp. in detail. Stuff just wouldn't hit for the life of me.
I actually did post an IG list way back months ago. I've probably changed my idea for what to have in the list though. I never calculated the points for that list anyway. I was going to have a couple collossuses in the list but i figure i could just switch those out for banewolfs. Dunno if i'll still get medusas or another demolisher. Some meltagun kasrkin to deepstrike behind enemy lines and destroy tanks and artillery (probably not doing much vs a tank heavy army). I'd have at least 2 leman russes. I'd probably take about 4 veteran squads having 2 squads with plasma guns and another 2 squads with meltaguns. At one point i was thinking of using vendettas with the meltagun veterans inside but i might just use a couple vendettas and give the meltagun vets the demolition loadout and give them a priest for re-rolls for meltabombs when engaging vehicles in melee that have moved (besides eviscerators are good vs some vehicles) (i could always use both tactics but it might get points heavy). Finally i'd have 4 guardsmen squads and a bunch of heavy weapons (rockets, lascannons). A commissar lord couldn't hurt either by being placed near my heavy weapons (it makes the orders go off on his Ld 10). I need more autocannons probably. I wish i never made those 6 rockets and instead made them into 3 lascannons and 3 autocannons. I'd have a lot less trouble with stupid transports by now if i did.
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Post by ElegaicRequiem on Oct 10, 2010 9:54:23 GMT -5
For some reason i almost always have bad luck rolling for autocannons. I'll get like 6 shots and maybe 2 will hit. That's only one away from the statistical three that should hit. I say you need a bigger sample size.
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Post by Hetfiltrator on Oct 10, 2010 16:29:11 GMT -5
Holy hellfire rounds! The new Dark Eldar look positively vicious! I can not wait to get fighting them!
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