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Post by F.K.M on Apr 12, 2011 10:21:01 GMT -5
So as the title sounds ridiculously perverted as it should whether it's thingys or boobs. I feel it's ridiculous 8th edition fantasy seems to have a new horniness for monsters. I wouldn't doubt high elves, wood elves, dark elves, the empire (probably in the form of a metal monstrosity), bretonnia and multiple other races will get the ridiculously big monster treatment when their codexes roll along in the ridiculous hard book fashion which tacks on at least another 8 dollars.
You may wonder why i have more of a problem with the arachnorok spider and the reason is it came out a month after the hellpit abomination and is better than it. We had to wait over a year for our ultimate monster and the orks over-do the kit in one month at codex release. I'm not even fornicateing with you. It's toughness 6 with 8 freaking wounds and a +4 armor save and can have a level 4 wizard riding it. It's repulsive. For 500 pts i can have a level 4 daemon prince type character which only has a +5 ward save, toughness 5, 5 wounds, str 6, a sword that inflicts D3 wounds (they still even get armor saves) and it can be cannon balled to death easily. For the within 100 pts of the same price they get a disgusting melee monster which is faster and carries a level 4 wizard that knows an entire fornicateing lore. Not to mention the arachnorok spider has 8 attacks all poisoned with one being able to do D6 wounds!
Now for some reason i don't hate the new toughness 8 models of the tomb kings because they only have 5 wounds and even if they have armor or something stupid they can still be poisoned, cannon-balled or wind globadiered to death really easily in comparison to the super gay arachnarok spider. Also the one with the tomb king leader is the horde killer while the other is the monster killer. The monster killer has heroic killing blow though so good luck sending your monster against it. Chances are i'll hear arachnorok spider people female doging about it but all i can do is laugh. Serves them right for having some super beast with a fully decked out wizard.
Finally they have this new expansion to warhammer that has overpowered sorcery during the full moon of morslieb (which probably makes sense) and monsters (for probably no particular reason). I know sorcery isn't part of my deal with monsters but it does cover the whole BIG stuff category. I just hope they don't make it extremely overpowered unless the miscast table is also likewise overblown.
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Post by cheminhaler on Apr 12, 2011 14:25:17 GMT -5
This isn't necessarily a bad thing, FKM. One thing all fantasy fans love is a big fornicate-off monster that looks like it can crush entire regiments underfoot. Just look at mythology - the kraken, the titans, the cyclopses - it's all about brutish monsters tearing each other's throats out with their fangs and tails, an' that.
If you're scared of a huge fornicateer of a spider then just get 3 cannons, or something and blow it's brains all over the grass, or hold it off with loads of cheap skavenslaves, who'll probably just run away, or die in seconds.
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Post by F.K.M on Apr 13, 2011 0:00:16 GMT -5
I can make a skavenslave mass that will actually stay a long, long time. You just add cheap 15 pts warlocks to them and use their leadership 5 and tons of ranks to get the 3 rank leadership bonus so they have leadership 8. Then have a warlord and perhaps a BSB nearby so they have Ld 10 and re-roll at best. Should both die your squads will still have a warlock that can use verminous valor to run to the back and still use his leadership for boosting skavenslave leadership. Yes i made up a really hard to break large skavenslave force. I'll probably only use 2 80 slave blocks with 8 ranks each. I was gonna have 3 units of 80 slaves each but i eventually changed my mind.
The problem with skaven cannons and even doomwheels is that the strength is anywhere from 2-10 or misfire. Sure they should all go through armor but you have to realize these aren't empire or dwarf cannons. Against the tomb king monsters if i roll a 2-6 or a misfire i'm in trouble. With an 8 or 10 i can wound the damn thing with d6 wounds each lightning strike. I think i'd prefer to use the doomwheel but against the flying necrosphinx and a poor roll of random movement and i'd be screwed.
There's nothing wrong with big monsters except the fact they're all getting bigger and stupider. Everything should have some sort of weakness and they do but considering the movement on each of the monsters good luck trying to kill them. They're just too maneuverable. I mean empire and dwarfs won't have a problem with their stupid overpowered cannons but a lot of other races will. There's only a few good ways to take down a toughness 8 model in fantasy and that is cannons, poison, a few wargear options, special units and hero weapons. The current monsters in other armies don't even fornicateing compare. I'm still annoyed about that damned spider though. Just having 8 wounds and a +4 armor save makes it good against being poisoned to death. Maybe if i had a vermin lord that could kill it but chances are it'd be killed by the spider. I want to use a fellblade on it but the spider could just avoid the unit until the fellblade kills my leader doing terrible damage to me by doing so. I suppose doomwheels are my best option against it. Maybe if the hellpit gets a charge off and my plague censers or plague furnace hit it then that'd do something. Really i could find a way to make most of my units killers of the spider so that it has to charge one of them and therefore die. It could wreak havoc against my hellpit and esp. the plague furnace though. I'm actually hoping i can use a brass orb on the spider. With this they take an initiative test or die. This could be insanely useful vs that spider and the tomb kings monsters not to mention cracks call which is also initiative test or die. I need a grey seer. The look on my opponent's face when their big stupid monster gets instant killed would be priceless.
I just hate the way GW took forever to make a hellpit and then they just give an arachnarok the very next month at codex release. That was bullnuts and everybody should know it.
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Post by Deathkorpsman on Apr 13, 2011 2:04:43 GMT -5
I'd agree with you, but I have no sympathy for any armies monsters because I play Beastmen. We're the BEAST ARMY. And ours are by far the worst beasts in the game. Our best one is... still... a Giant. WTH is up with that? On the plus side, our army book is bad in general so the junk monsters aren't as noticeable.
Tell me how you feel when all the stuff that comes out before, and after, your army book is way better than yours and then I'll show some sympathy.
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Post by F.K.M on Apr 13, 2011 3:49:05 GMT -5
I'd agree with you, but I have no sympathy for any armies monsters because I play Beastmen. We're the BEAST ARMY. And ours are by far the worst beasts in the game. Our best one is... still... a Giant. WTH is up with that? On the plus side, our army book is bad in general so the junk monsters aren't as noticeable. Tell me how you feel when all the stuff that comes out before, and after, your army book is way better than yours and then I'll show some sympathy. Believe me i do have sympathy for beastmen. They should've been buffed a lot better than they were. Still minotaurs can be pretty sick (i fought 18 of them once and it didn't end well) and so can the mass ambush beastmen are capable of. The problem i hear is that their toughest creatures aren't any better than ogres toughness-wise and they don't have great armor either. I hear beastmen have problems with the new monsters and also with shooting and such in general. I know beastmen are good against me and probably my whole army but against these new tomb kings monsters it's just ridiculous. I hope you poor bastards have some way to damage them with poison or some strong attacks. I still feel that the new codexes are better than mine somehow. I dunno why but they seem cooler. Just unhappy 8th edition came out after the codex was released. It was totally a gay move by GW. |
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Post by Scarper on Apr 13, 2011 4:56:18 GMT -5
New codexes will always be more exciting than the ones that came before, or all the army hoppers and tournament players wouldn't jump to the new ones and give GW the cash injection they were craving. You can't get hung up on it, or it'll drive you crazy - change and adapt! Makes it much more satisfying to scrape a win through questionable tactics than table someone with a monster anyway. ;D
Also, you really need to stop using 'gay' like that.
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Post by F.K.M on Apr 13, 2011 5:00:32 GMT -5
So orren has a problem with the word 'retarded' and you have a problem with the word 'gay'. To me it could be sheep for all i care and somebody would be offended i consider sheep stupid or something. I'm just throwing a word out there. I don't need people to be so super sensitive about the matter.
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Post by Scarper on Apr 13, 2011 5:10:25 GMT -5
I was going to write a big post about how that's not even close to being the same, but it's not worth my time. If you can't see the problem with using phrases like that as general expressions of things you don't like, no one on the internet will be able to change your mind. Still, I'm pretty sure what I said about codex creep stands true!  |
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Post by F.K.M on Apr 13, 2011 6:38:03 GMT -5
I was going to write a big post about how that's not even close to being the same, but it's not worth my time. If you can't see the problem with using phrases like that as general expressions of things you don't like, no one on the internet will be able to change your mind. Still, I'm pretty sure what I said about codex creep stands true! I can and do i just think this world is so overly sensitive. Anyway yes codex creep is there. Ogres need a new army book soon hopefully. I'm not completely a fan of monsters so huge they give fantasy nerds everywhere boners. I want the game to have some form of balance. Everything needs balance so some fornicateer doesn't just take a bunch of overpowered units and spam the nuts out of them. Not that they can do that in fantasy like 40k erm storm shield termies erm. |
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Post by Deathkorpsman on Apr 13, 2011 7:33:57 GMT -5
New codexes will always be more exciting than the ones that came before, or all the army hoppers and tournament players wouldn't jump to the new ones and give GW the cash injection they were craving. You can't get hung up on it, or it'll drive you crazy - change and adapt! Makes it much more satisfying to scrape a win through questionable tactics than table someone with a monster anyway. ;D I'd like to reference what I said above about the Beastmen armybook being noticeably worse than the army books that came before it. In fact, there is a strong argument to be made that it is worse than the previous edition of the same book! Beasts lost a ton of stuff and gained, well, poop. Lost a reliable ambush (totally random now, with no way to improve it), lost skirmishing ranked troops, lost half the heavy hitter units we could take, lost access to chaos lores. It was a complete loss. Our monsters? None of them are high strength, high toughness, high armor save (ours have no armor), high anything really. The Gorgon has a glimmer of potential, but it has to win a lot of combats first without dying and its ability to do that against anything but non-elite formations is highly questionable. We have very few poisoned anythings. No ranged ability aside from magic... oh yeah, we have shortbows on expensive skirmishers with poo stats. Our signature lore is junk, with no augments, and rules that don't work well with 8th ed. despite it being written as the 8th rules were being finalized pre-printing. In a nutshell, Andy Hoare and Phil Kelly can take a short walk. Back to the OP, power creep is going to happen for a while. It will take time for the curve to get back around to the armies that generally end up being 'balanced' like High Elves and similar, though dragon spam nutcrazy lists and swordmasters still make me cringe. Really, all the lists they've come out with in the last few years are quite good. The only lists that are really struggling are the ones that haven't been updated, such as Wood Elves, Ogre Kingdoms and TK's (who played these until now when they get T8 killbots?). Beastmen are obviously an exception to this, since Murphy takes a personal interest in making me suffer. |
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Post by F.K.M on Apr 13, 2011 15:54:38 GMT -5
To be fair tomb kings also look nicer and though toughness 8 killbot statues are awesome the new snake riders and ambush snake guys sound pretty awesome too. Not to mention the new tomb guard are awesome. I don't know what else they've got or are getting though. I kind of wanted to do tomb kings just because they seemed underpowered and nobody played them like other armies. Problem is old armies look like nuts.
High elves now are totally imba except for being shot or magicked to death (if you even have any of that). Wood elves can still be strong. They can put out a nasty hail of fire. Ogres are weak esp. if you know you can just undo all their 'remains in play' spells on a low roll. I'm sure the toughness 5 spell is critical which is why i always remove it from play. Tomb kings i honestly never played but i heard you can be nasty with them even in the old book.
I'm not sure i like 8th horniness with ranked units but hell that's one bonus for skaven. You have enough ranks and bam your units stay.
Some codexes have been powered down. I think skaven have in some cases as i heard you could do some spam of shooting with assassins or gutter runners and they used to have power bands which made them strength 10 or something. They even removed the auto-hit for ratling guns which now totally suck. I just hate the idea how they ruin some of your models and make you buy new stuff although it's totally profitable.
In my opinion dwarfs and empire are somewhat overpowered and possibly elves. Cannons just wreck monsters easily and organ guns and empire weapons should blow chunks out of a battleline. Empire troops also seem alright but the cavalry and guns seem sick. Dwarfs have good troops that can waste anything. High elves however just have some of the sickest troops ever. Aside from warriors of chaos which are totally under-pointed they have some of the best troops in the game.
Basically ogres, bretonnia, tomb kings and several other races need new codexes badly due to age and being underpowered. Also the guy who wrote the beastmen codex should have the nuts beaten out of him with a rolled up newspaper.
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Post by Walrus on Apr 14, 2011 8:53:44 GMT -5
Tomb kings ARE getting a new codex or whatever the fantasy version is called...
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Post by The Envoy (AWOL) on Apr 14, 2011 11:18:26 GMT -5
Army Book.
Also, this isn't much different than Herohammer back in 5th (if the trend of giant monsters continues) but to be honest they've always been around. They're just getting bigger nowadays is all. They have to draw new players in somehow, and they seem to want to do it with centerpiece units, that also kick ass and take names on the tabletop.
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Post by F.K.M on Apr 14, 2011 15:09:10 GMT -5
@envoy: My only problem with that is smaller monsters become unused. Who the fornicate is going to use a giant in an orcs and goblins army anymore? If they have the points they'll use an arachnarok or at least one that doesn't have a mount and it will own and be painful. Walrus: I know i'm just talking about the old codex being underpowered with codex creep (when codexes get old basically). Ogres, tomb kings and bretonnians are probably good examples of this. They can be played well but they lack a lot of good things. |
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Post by The Envoy (AWOL) on Apr 14, 2011 15:48:23 GMT -5
@envoy: My only problem with that is smaller monsters become unused. Who the fornicate is going to use a giant in an orcs and goblins army anymore? If they have the points they'll use an arachnarok or at least one that doesn't have a mount and it will own and be painful. Not so sure. A lot of decent players have gotten along fine without giant uberbeasts for going on 20 years now. I honestly don't really see them taking over due to points cost, kinda like taking a Land Raider in a 1000pt. list for 40k. It looks amazing on paper, but you lose a lot of flexibility with such a points sink. |
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Post by Deathkorpsman on Apr 14, 2011 22:37:11 GMT -5
In a 1k list sure, you're not going to see big nasties because you're hard pressed to free up a quarter of your list for one even if you have a monster that cheap. It would be silly.
Taking a land raider in 2k though, is common enough. Most tournaments hover around the 2-3k range for both 40k and fantasy, at least the ones I've heard of. Smaller list sizes for tournaments do exist, but I wouldn't consider that the norm. Even for normal play with fantasy, it's pretty rare that I don't see someone plopping down some big nasty thing with their list. Screaming bell, giant, stegadon, war hydra, HPA, they are all quite common in anything but a small list.
GW went out of their way to make the regular RnF units better, with Steadfast and all that, but monsters are still crazy enough as a wound dealer that most good players feel hard pressed not to take them. For what they do, they are very points efficient. They also have the added bonus of being a fire magnet and psychological distraction, much as a Land Raider or Monolith would be in 40k, except they tend to be more effective at winning their points back once they get into melee.
I know for a Beastman list, a Giant is cheaper than anything but a small unit of Bestigors and can do things that Bestigors can't do. My list doesn't have mounted characters or anything like that, aside from chariots, so my ability to have easy to direct damage dealers for counter charges and the like is rather limited. Other armies don't have such a problem, which is irksome. I am envious of armies like Skaven or Lizardmen that can go without any big monsters or cavalry units and make it up with infantry blocks, shooting, or magic, or a combination. /sigh
Still, I think aside from mine all the army books that came out in 7th or now with 8th have been pretty competitive with each other. The armies that have been underpowered, like WE, TK, OK, and mine (damn you GW!) have been that way for a long while. That isn't going to change till they get new books to bring them up to speed. Power creep seems prevalent, but I think it is more of a lack of abilities that take advantage of the current ruleset that hurts these lists the most, as opposed to super flashy stuff that is actually cheesy.
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Post by F.K.M on Apr 15, 2011 4:23:56 GMT -5
Beastmen should have some nice hard hitters, some damage sponges and some great ambushers. There magic should also be decent though i feel all but one spell in lore of beasts sucks. Though it could be helpful buffing a character against a monster.
Also i'm pretty sure beastmen have centigors which are basically cavalry though i hear they suck. Minotaurs are good but basically with ogre stats and can be shot to death (most effective way to deal with them).
I do feel bad about ogres too. Their magic boosts seem incredibly necessary esp. the toughness 5 boost and if you just dispell the 'remains in play' spell then that's it.
Skaven have shooting in the form of jezzails, poisoned wind globadiers and weapons teams but you need a lot of the first two to be effective at all and weapons teams esp. the new nerfed ratling gun are misfire heavy. Personally i'd get some poisoned wind mortars myself as they can move and fire, fire indirectly and have a good range but they are really good against knights and warriors of chaos (armored units) and not as much with other things like hordes, monsters and ogre sized creatures. Problem is poisoned wind mortars only come with 1 for every island of blood set and you can't get them any other way unless you purchase parts of the set online or from people in the store.
Jezzails are also decent at killing knights en masse. They're only BS 3 though and in some cases will be at half range. It might sound great but with new monsters at toughness 8 they'll only wound on 6's. Even against cannons and some weaker monsters they're only decent. They're basically meant for knight killing and not much else and their price is high (20 pts each). Just as an example of shooting at a toughness 7 with 3 wound cannon let's say you have 15 jezzails shooting at full range (36"). Granted that's a lot but at BS 3 that means only 5 will hit and at str 6 and going through 4 armor less than 2 will wound. This costs over 300 pts to do going against a cannon costing maybe 90 pts and it's still alive after a round of shooting against a mass of jezzails.
Strangely enough warpfire throwers are good against ogre sized creatures but also most hordes. I would use warpfire throwers but they can't move and shoot and each one might get off a good one or two shots before it's charged in most cases. An artillery die plus a flame template doesn't give much range.
The biggest problem with all fast skaven units, all weapons teams, monsters and even all the big war machines is that they're all random and have a chance to blow up on themselves horribly. Skaven may have fast units and random movement can be awesome but sometimes these units are slow. Also though each unit is movement 5 or 6 this is the best we usually get for regular movement except for the vermin lord which nobody takes.
Skaven still have awesome units don't get me wrong. I just hate the idea of armoring the new monsters and giving the arachnorok a stupid amount of wounds. Also the skaven warp lightning cannon and doomwheel are incredibly random units.
The skaven's biggest problem is being random as fornicate with all weapons team and shooting attacks. The most reliable things are usually crappy hordes and gutter runners (starting on the table). Even censer bearers will sometimes kill a lot of their own with fog and if they don't win a melee and run down their enemies after the first combat expect them to last all of 5 seconds. They are worth it though.
Basically skaven may be awesome but they can destroy themselves horribly in any game. The potential is totally there and no army is as unreliable as their own.
Sorry for diverting the topic. I'm just unhappy some armies just have some ridiculously big and powerful monsters now but you wanted to talk armies so i did.
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Post by cheminhaler on Apr 30, 2011 10:57:43 GMT -5
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Post by F.K.M on Apr 30, 2011 17:48:55 GMT -5
At first i didn't even care and then i got pissed and then didn't care again. It only has 5 wounds and a +5 armor save. With proper poisoned attacks you can poison that fornicateer to death. I can use my gutter runners with poisoned slings to do that. I was thinking the fellblade is alright but they'll probably just avoid that unit.
So basically the route i'm going to go is taking a doomwheel, taking a warlock with a brass orb (initiative test or instantly die) and skitterleaping him, get cracks call and skitterleap with a grey seer possibly, using bless with filth if i can get it possibly in combination with gutter runners and take a warlord with fellblade. Of course i'll probably only rely on the doomwheel, the brass orb with warlock, skitterleap and cracks call for doing the big damage but having everything together makes sure that that nuts's going down. So basically initiative-wise like all undead it is pretty poor and will drop to a well placed brass orb or cracks call on average. Even if that doesn't work if you should run into combat with +5 to wound poisoned attacks it should fall really quick. I also prefer fighting it to the spider because it has 5 wounds instead of 8 and only +5 armor instead of +4. Plus each of the two new monsters are probably points heavy and very specific in their roles. One is a large target and hero killer while the other is a mount that kills hordes and possibly benefits lords.
So basically i don't hate it as much as the fornicateing spider by a long shot. I'll even go as far to say the necrosphinx looks really cool and bad ass. I'm actually interested in the new tomb kings esp. the snake riders and necrosphinx. Anyway believe it or not i like the new tomb kings and think it's a definite improvement with units even though i never played tomb kings. Also big monsters makes sense with tomb kings whereas with orcs and goblins it just doesn't to me for some reason. Huge fornicateing spiders exist in fantasy but it's ridiculous. Large statues coming alive though makes sense to me.
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Post by F.K.M on May 14, 2011 23:19:33 GMT -5
Sorry for the thread necro but i think it's worth it.
I've actually decided i don't even hate the arachnorok anymore. I think my new nemesis is going to be the steam tank actually. God that thing has a ridiculous stat-line and wrecks face. Sad thing is it's not even new.
You see i'm not afraid against the arachnorok because all i have to do is hit it with plague censers with the 'bless with filth' (poisoned attacks) spell. If it goes off everything will be super awesome. Hatred will allow me to re-roll missed hits so i have a greater chance at getting 6's, the strength 5 will go through most of the armor (giving the spider a +6 armor save) and then there's the normal attacks which will probably wound it since it's only toughness 5. So basically i get 6 wounds from poisoned attacks which get +6 saves (5 unsaved wounds) and another 5 unsaved wounds i think. Provided my fog attacks don't kill off too many of my censers i'll totally wreck face with this combo. I mean i can even kill off the sphinxes as they only have a +5 armor save so i'd ignore it completely.
Against steam tanks however the fellblade, doomwheels, warp lightning cannons and initiative tests are the only option. The thing is extremely tough and has a lot of wounds. I think i even heard it has a good armor save. There's really not a lot i can do against it. I could always cause 6 wounds from poisoned censer bearers against it and another 2 wounds but they'd still probably get their armor save with a -2 modifier this is praying i don't fog myself to death. It better damn well be a lot of points.
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notts
Conscript
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Post by notts on Jul 28, 2011 6:05:24 GMT -5
I think it's pretty absurd that you're complaining about the arachnarok to be honest. The Abomb is cheaper than it for starters.
They're not that good! 4+ armour save is so much worse than the regeneration of the abomb. and if you put a wizard on it, it becomes super expensive, and any template weapons which hit it, hit both wizard and spider.
It's only stubborn ld 6, so get it into combat with clan rats/slaves and you will tie it up/eventually kill it/ eventually make it run.
and you complain about the WLc being str 2-10, but then neglect to mention that it ends in the small template now.
The Skaven book in general is a lot tougher than the orc book- and other armies are allowed good things not just skaven btw! who have the best core troops, the best leadership rules, and the best magic lore.
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Post by F.K.M on Aug 7, 2011 21:42:07 GMT -5
I hear the arachnorok only has leadership issues with wizard on top. True +4 armor isn't a big deal but it is a big deal when you use poisoned weapons at str 3 on it. I suppose at some point you just have to realize poisoned weapons are only really good at str 5 or 6 so that armor is negated. The abomination is good but it doesn't have anything too insane in my opinion. It's good perhaps even great but it could be worse. Yes i didn't mention the small template it ends in but you know the other problem? Its misfire results are worse than normal cannons. That's right on a 6 you can't shoot for a turn, on a 1-2 i think it blows up and on any other result you get a str 10 blast that goes in scatter die direction and ends in a large blast. I've heard skaven players get destroyed by WL C misfires like that. I'd use the thing but it's just too risky. Also the plagueclaw catapult does str 2 large blast stone thrower shot that avoids armor. Sure it goes through armor and provides good shooting but on average you only wound 1/3 of the enemy you hit and that's if they're toughness 3. Often at toughness 4 against warriors of chaos you'll only wound them 1/6th the time unless you wither them. Good luck with that.
The skaven book is about average. Check out the empire and chaos daemons books and you will see cheese everywhere. Hell even high elves are pretty hard. Try fighting high elves with skaven. Since they have ASF and as high initiative at all times they always get re-rolls to hit. Not to mention if you don't have good shooting or magic against the high elves you will undoubtedly lose. This probably goes for dark elves too. I mean other than the hellpit and a few other awesome weapons high elves and possibly dark elves will rape you even warriors of chaos probably will and even chaos daemons. See the problem with high elves is your force might be dead before you even get to attack them in melee and their magic is also pretty nasty. Plague monks, clanrats, stormvermin, plague censers and pretty much everything dies in any points even fight against high elves and possibly dark elves. Try it with skaven and you'll see what i mean. Skaven rely on numbers and high speed and elves can handle both. Best thing to do is use magic or shooting like i said and skaven shooting isn't the greatest most of the time except for warpfire throwers and maybe one or two things.
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