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Post by Rolling Thunder on Mar 25, 2011 18:08:31 GMT -5
They can have scoped boltguns and scoped stuff if they want. However, they will not get snipers, because:
A) Scouts are juvies, they haven't "done" specialised sniper training. B) Having a scoped rifle doesn't make you a sniper C) Space Marines have no fluff of using actual snipers. Scouts infiltrate (which is also kind of stupid when I think about it...part-trained juvies do not make competent infiltrators), but I don't think they're actual snipers. Snipers in this rules set specifically represent real snipers - infiltrating troops who operate in two-man teams, specifically trained in fieldcraft and concealment, trained to pick out and disable officers/leaders/enemy equipment. Scouts don't fit that.
Also, since we're not constrained by the silly 10-men within 2" of each other (Squad size is 2+, coherency is 4") model, we can discount how 40K deployment actually works. In reality (and in Guard fluff), the Guard and human forces deploy in small, spaced-out fireteams utilising firepower, manoeuvrability and concealment, Space Marines fight in their own insane, ritualised fashion...
And everyone else fights like they do on the tabletop...insane though it may be.
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Post by Gabriel Lupus on Mar 25, 2011 18:54:27 GMT -5
RT, just been mulling over ideas mainly for the Inquisitors/Commissars/etc characters and mainly thinking about the unique wargear/weaponry they could have access to. Working on the idea of "lesser understood, arcane style" ideal, rather than physics wise logic (as in I'm not worrying about explanations of how they work). Where abouts should I post this kind of thing? In a Thread specifically for the characters, or a "new" wargear style thread? I'm thinking just in the characters thread (which I'm considering calling "Codex: Imperial Servants").
I'll probably be posting/working on the wargear/weaponry side first, and look to get something up sometime tomorrow.
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Post by Rolling Thunder on Mar 25, 2011 20:54:58 GMT -5
A new thread is a good idea Gabe.
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Post by Gabriel Lupus on Mar 26, 2011 14:18:38 GMT -5
Thread is up and running people
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Post by Rolling Thunder on Mar 26, 2011 15:49:58 GMT -5
Thanks Gabe!
I'd just like to take this moment to say thank you to everyone for taking part in this project. We're going to make this one of the finest rules-sets out there - something that's going to kick every other 40K rewrite into the dust by the side of the road.
Also: New Project Motto:
"Sorry. Winning."
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Post by Rolling Thunder on Mar 29, 2011 9:06:57 GMT -5
Some new ideas I've had:
Hand grenades. I've already implemented them with a 6" throwing range. However, I'd like to expand them a bit:
Frag grenades: A 1" interior blast at S5 AP2, representing the concussive charge of the grenade, and a 4" larger blast at S3 AP-, representing the fragmentation. Concussion grenades: a 2" or 3" blast at S5 AP2. Incendiary grenades: A 2"/3" blast at S5 AP4 that ignores terrain effects. AT grenades: A 1" blast (so it's easy to miss) at S7 AP1.
Thoughts?
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Post by Trickstick on Mar 29, 2011 9:40:49 GMT -5
You could make grenades range equal to double the strength stat. This would keep normal range at 6 but give stronger things more range.
I also think that s5 ap2 is a bit much for grenades. I don't think that a grenade's concussive force is comparable to a lascannon shot at penetrating armour. Maybe s6 ap3.
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Post by Gabriel Lupus on Mar 29, 2011 11:38:43 GMT -5
I like the idea of grenades having a variable radius based strength effect - certainly goes someway to portraying the blast and it's surrounding, gradually decreasing effect.
Just a note on grenades while I'm thinking about it - would it be worth/viable/have a point, putting in some rules for models to "sacrifice" themselves to reduce the grenades effect? Like diving on top of said device to save their comrades? Maybe race restricted somehow?
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Post by Rolling Thunder on Mar 29, 2011 12:38:52 GMT -5
Okay, been looking at weapon distances and considering blast ranges.
I'm separating out grenades and rockets into fragmentation, concussion, anti-tank and incendiary (to start with).
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Post by cheminhaler on Mar 30, 2011 14:35:26 GMT -5
Also we should bring back some of the unusual, exotic and alien grenade types - hallucinogen, anti-plant and whatnot. For the hallucinogen it'll be highly amusing to make a random chart for behaviour of affected infantry.
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Post by Rolling Thunder on Mar 30, 2011 15:48:43 GMT -5
The problem with hallucinogen (and gas) weapons is that they're a binary effect: Either they'll wipe your enemy out (because said enemy can't afford gas masks) or they'll be useless. I'd prefer to leave them out.
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Post by Trickstick on Mar 30, 2011 17:40:11 GMT -5
Well you could make gas masks just a modifier for gas, or perhaps a save. It is not like gas masks are 100% effective.
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Post by Rolling Thunder on Mar 30, 2011 21:14:18 GMT -5
They pretty much are, actually, assuming your opponent is competent in their use, moreover, hallucinogenic effects are a waste of time - just shoot your opponent. Or incinerate him. No, I think that gas-based weapons need leaving off the table.
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Post by Rolling Thunder on Mar 31, 2011 10:26:10 GMT -5
Space Marine Problems:
Having examined quite a bit of Space Marine literature, I have come to a conclusion:
Space Marines will definitely have 2 wounds at the least, potentially three. They have multiple redundant organ systems, hardened bone structure and unnaturally fast clotting mechanisms, plus an extremely hardened mental state that will make disabling them considerably harder than a normal biological organism.
Space Marines will have to be Initiative 3. Having examined their biology, I see absolutely nothing that increases reflex speed, mental acuity or responsiveness - indeed, intensive conditioning is known to decrease problem-solving and responsiveness to unknown situations. It has been taken as a given that "Space Marines are superhuman", which I entirely agree with. However, there is nothing in their biology that would actually make them physically faster. More responsive to certain situations, certainly - massively improved hearing and senses, yes, but in an environment where everyone is liable to have advanced sensors, that is something of an irrelevance (especially when they're inside a goddamn suit of motorised armour.)
Adeptus Astartes: 30pts
WS: 5 BS: 4 S:4 T: 4 I: 3 W: 3 A: 3 Ld: 9
Stubborn.
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Post by Paradill on Mar 31, 2011 22:08:21 GMT -5
I can't help but take issue with the I:3.
There is reference after reference to marines being ridiculously fast across a lot of the literature. In fact, the most IP controlled series, the HH books, have marines as being able to do things that includes. but is not limited to; Deflecting several on coming bolt shells with their swords (TFH) Seeing human's move in sluggish, telegraphed ways (PB) Moving as fast enough in close combat to defend against eight, super fast xeno talon-limbs at a time (HR)
It depends how much on the realism/fluff balance you want I suppose. The "indoctrination" a marine gets is due to the fact they are usually either criminal hive gangers or violent feral/feudal peoples who need to be brought into the chapters cult so as to assure the resources used on them aren't a waste. The hypnosis and chemical stimuli is to allow the marines' implanted organs to grow in a certain way, or in some cases to allow the marine control over his organs such as the sus-an and the milti-lung.
Depending on how much the fluff is to be a factor, the primarchs had the warp encoded into their DNA, giving them apparent super human abilities that were just different, uncontrolled, manifestations of their psychic gifts. The space marines share a portion of that warp-entwined DNA and therefor it is perfectly plausible their reactions would be faster, especially combined with the rest of their biology, sort of like a permanent, less powerful quickening
Just my thoughts on the matter.
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Post by Rolling Thunder on Apr 1, 2011 8:57:21 GMT -5
Deflecting several on coming bolt shells with their swords (TFH) That's being ignored because it's patently ridiculous. Seeing human's move in sluggish, telegraphed ways (PB) Moving as fast enough in close combat to defend against eight, super fast xeno talon-limbs at a time (HR) Still no explanation as to how and why. The hypnosis and chemical stimuli is to allow the marines' implanted organs to grow in a certain way, or in some cases to allow the marine control over his organs such as the sus-an and the milti-lung. Yes, but there is still no explanation as to why Marines are so fast. Depending on how much the fluff is to be a factor, the primarchs had the warp encoded into their DNA, giving them apparent super human abilities that were just different, uncontrolled, manifestations of their psychic gifts. The space marines share a portion of that warp-entwined DNA and therefor it is perfectly plausible their reactions would be faster, especially combined with the rest of their biology, sort of like a permanent, less powerful quickeningThat's just a phlebetonium - a convenient plot-excuse of "The warp did it" that still does not explain how marines are faster. That's the problem. Unless I have a definitive reason/explanation as to how the Adeptus Astartes are made to be so ridiculously fast (not just "The fluff says so.") then I can't allow them to keep Initiative 4.
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Post by Paradill on Apr 2, 2011 1:16:48 GMT -5
But you're allowing for several other plot excuses in giving them two wounds, S4 & T4. If we completely ignore things that aren't possible, the secondary heart would just give the marine extra high blood pressure, the biscopea would have no effect and both the black carapace and catelapsean node are impossible, as are the progenoids.
The thing is, all these implants are from the Primarchs, which are an impossibility, from the Emperor, who is an impossibility. Are we not having any Psykers? How do psykers do it? It seems silly to include a countless number of pseudo scientific 'facts' but call one of them out as being ridiculous. Either accept marines as a whole, or make them humans with a 3+ save, anything in between seems a little indecisive.
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Post by Rolling Thunder on Apr 2, 2011 7:48:08 GMT -5
But you're allowing for several other plot excuses in giving them two wounds, S4 & T4. If we completely ignore things that aren't possible, the secondary heart would just give the marine extra high blood pressure, Certain animals have multiple organ systems. A secondary heart is a relatively workable modification to the human system (and indeed, the additionally high blood pressure would be potentially desirable). the biscopea would have no effect and both the black carapace and catelapsean node are impossible, How and why? The thing is, all these implants are from the Primarchs, which are an impossibility, from the Emperor, who is an impossibility. Are we not having any Psykers? How do psykers do it? It seems silly to include a countless number of pseudo scientific 'facts' but call one of them out as being ridiculous. Either accept marines as a whole, or make them humans with a 3+ save, anything in between seems a little indecisive. Psionics are a workable and relatively "explained" facet of 40K. I don't need things to make complete and utter sense, I just need a plausible reason for them, and Initiative 4 does not have one. There is a vast difference between doing magical things (i.e. psychic powers) by magic, and just hand-waving away physiological differences as "Oh, a wizard did it." The former is fine in a soft sci-fi game. The latter is stupid.
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Post by cheminhaler on Apr 2, 2011 9:31:31 GMT -5
Still no explanation as to how and why. Yes, but there is still no explanation as to why Marines are so fast. Power armour isn't a hindrance or a weight on you, like traditional armour. In most BL books marines are totally unencumbered. Trying to think of examples, but the servos in their armour allow them to leap to great heights when plugged into their armour. So their armour is bolstering their strength, toughness and initiative.
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Post by Paradill on Apr 2, 2011 14:13:00 GMT -5
The choice is up to you RT, it's your system, but I still can't see why Psykers "Drawing on the power of the immaterium" is any more plausible than super gene-enhanced fighting machines, bound to the warp at a molecular level. If you don't like that explanation, Chem almost has it right, the machine spirit of power armour works in tandem with the heightened senses of the marine, allowing him to become aware of, asses and react to any potential threats much faster than the average human. The armour itself wired in to the marines' nervous system and so doesn't restrict movement.
In regards to psionics being a more 'explained and workable' part of 40k, the hows' and why's of an astartes warrior has been a part of 40k for as long as it has existed (them being the poster boys) they are faster, because of their armour, enhancements, training, experience and genetics. I can't see why that's not plausible.
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Post by Rolling Thunder on Apr 3, 2011 10:17:25 GMT -5
On the advice of my team, I'm going to keep Space Marines at Initiative 4. You've made some valid arguments and, frankly, it's 50:50 between changing and keeping it the same, so I'm opting to keep it the same.
Righto... Progress Update:
Movement system updated, squad coherency updated, weapons system (obviously) updated.
RT: Currently working on updating the human armoury. Chem: Working on Codex: Space Skinks. Lupus: Working on Codex: Imperium. Trickstick: Overwatching. RedsandRoyals: Working on Codex: Adeptus Astartes.
Gentlemen, since we have established communication, overwatch and all the various shooting changes, let us examine the assault phase.
My proposed changes:
When an assault is initiated, the defenders take an Ld Test. If they pass, they either get:
A free round of shooting against the attackers, or: Some kind of preparedness bonus (initiative bonus - double ini or something).
If the defenders fail, then they fight at normal initiative.
I also want Small Arms to be usable in close-quarters fighting (The best gun in the world is pretty useful if all your opponent brought is a rock...because you can vaporise your opponent). Contrary to popular belief, the majority of close combat is carried out with small arms (as opposed to with swords and knives). Assuming small arms are still usable in the assault phase, the initiative bonus given to the defenders would be a good way to represent the defenders "getting a shot off" as the attackers charge them. Maybe still have heavy weapon usable in the first turn of assault (for both sides).
Also: Ward and Invulnerable Saves will "stack" - so a model with a suppression shield (5+ Ward, +1 to armour save) and a Refractor Field (5+ Ward), wearing Heavy Armour (4+ Armour Save) will have a 3+ Armour Save and a 3+ Ward Save.
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Post by Rolling Thunder on Apr 11, 2011 14:41:04 GMT -5
Okay, are we going to get a basic rules set out or not! Ideas for changes/alterations to the Assault phase please people!
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Post by Trickstick on Apr 11, 2011 19:44:36 GMT -5
Also: Ward and Invulnerable Saves will "stack" - so a model with a suppression shield (5+ Ward, +1 to armour save) and a Refractor Field (5+ Ward), wearing Heavy Armour (4+ Armour Save) will have a 3+ Armour Save and a 3+ Ward Save. So are you saying that all models have a 7+ ward save, and that an artifact with a 5+ is really a +2? I'm just trying to think of some wording to make it easier to explain to people. Also, I was trying to think of a different name than ward save. Some people have negative associations with that word. Maybe aegis, buffer, shield or buffer? Only a minor point I suppose.
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Post by Gabriel Lupus on Apr 12, 2011 3:51:08 GMT -5
Some ideas I've been mulling over: Assault phase: - The outline in RT's initial post seems to work out pretty much fine. I can see your angle regarding using the Ld value to see if defenders strike first, but are we sure this shouldn't be an initiative test?
- How are we going to be working out weaponry such as pistols (and potentially some rifles) in combat? Will they give a strength buff as per the weapons strength? This has been a bit of a niggle of mine in 40k - only makes sense that if you were to use a plasma pistol in combat, it would have more hitting power than a stick... My concern here is how this will affect the modifiers from power weapons (ignoring armour etc). Simplest way I suppose is to allow players to "split" their models attacks between the weapons they are using in the combat (minimum of 1 attack assigned to each weapon) - similar to 2nd ed, and quick rolling could still be done simply by using different coloured dice.
- Winning assault - what is the result? Are we sticking close to 40k kind of theory in which losers take Ld test - success keeps the combat running, failure sees the losers running and winners potentially wiping them out? It seems to be a logical way round such things, but I'd like there to be some limitations set in (e.g. We surely don't want a Guard blob of 25 models fleeing combat to be killed by a single Marine... limit the number he can "kill" in his chasing of the routed foe, and say the rest become engaged in a new assault or something?)
Potentially "System wide" choices:
- Have we fully settled on the dice used for the system/phases? Just seems that being able to use something like a D8 might allow for more variation with some items - most particularly armour saves. I know there'll be some concern over whether people can get hold of said dice, but I don't think we should allow that to limit us. A quick Internet search will turn up LOTS of providers of multi-sided dice - and people who are serious about playing will be happy to do this. Seems a shame to be so quick to disregard this option for the reason that these dice may be "hard to find".
Save "Stacking":
- Seems like a little extra complication for little gain... I like the whole Suppression shield (+1 to armour save) making armour better, but combining the "ward"/"invulnerable" save seems slightly odd. Could they not simply be allowed to roll for each save they have in this respect? The example given by RT earlier would then provide 5+ refractor field ward save, 5+ suppression shield ward save, and a 3+ armour save. I know it might be a bit "nitpicky" but I just want to make sure we've thought this through fully.
Right... er... yes, there's a few points of input for now...
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Post by Rolling Thunder on Apr 12, 2011 9:07:39 GMT -5
Lupus: I want it to be Leadership, mostly because Initiative is a measure of how responsive a model is in terms of reflexes, Leadership is the measure of how responsive it is to battlefield situations . For example, if a horde of hormagaunts charge two Guard fire teams across open ground. The Guardsmen can quite clearly see their foes, and, assuming they're well-led and competent, there should be a a much higher chance of them getting the jump on the Gaunt's before they make contact. At the moment, I'm not sure what to do.
IDEA!!!! [Obscene Moddissarial glee].
Open Fire!: The unit gets a free shooting attack against the enemy unit that is assaulting them. Counter-attack: The unit charges the enemy unit (and so gains the +1 attack for charging). Withdraw: The unit immediately makes an ordered withdrawal* from the enemy unit.
If the test is failed, the unit must either:
Hold: Remain stationary and do nothing. Flee: Make a disorderly withdrawal**
*This will be the term for falling back, but if you are caught you are not wiped out. **This will be the term for a fall back move, and if caught you are wiped out.
Using weapons in close combat:
Small Arms: You may use small arms weapons in meleé, using WS to hit. You are limited by both the model's number of attacks and the number of shots the weapon has (whichever is lesser). The hits will be at the same S and AP as the weapon used by the model. Pistols and so on: A splitting attacks idea seems good.
Combat resolution and morale.
Currently, combat resolution tends to favour small, elite units over large blob units unfairly - killing two Terminators will have a far greater morale shock and material effect than wiping out five Guardsmen. As such, I am considering changing morale tests to a single morale system based entirely on unit percentages. Something like:
20% casualties: Make a morale check. If fail, the unit is suppressed [only from shooting casualties] or must make an orderly withdrawal [shooting or meleé].
40% casualties: Make a morale check. If the unit fails, the unit becomes pinned [shooting only] or must make a disorderly fall back [shooting or meleé].
I would like to keep my current system in regards to each casualty creating a -1 to the squad's overall Leadership for that turn and then implement this system. I think that I will have to make some kind of weapon-specific special rules for weapon's that will automatically force morale tests for suppression weapons (like machine guns and autocannons), as well as ones that force enemies to fall back (flamethrowers).
In regards to systems: We're sticking with the D6 for now. Keep things as easy and simple to understand as possible. Also: There will not be 25 man blobs. If you find yourself making 25-man squads then you are making a significant error. Five man- fire teams should be the order of the day! This is not regular 40K.
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