How to win without tanks?

[crazylegsmurphy]

Hey Everyone,

So, here is my problem. I have spent months building my IG army (using DKoK models), and even though I have spent a lot of time, I haven't been able to find the time to get my tanks done.

On a separate, but possibly related note, I have lost every game I have played against my friends.

They insist this is because I don't have tanks, and have threatened to stop playing me unless I build some.

So my question is - is it possible to beat my friends armies (Grey Knights, Chaos, Orks), without tanks? And if so how?

[BG. Foster]

i havent played for a long time and am hoping to start playing shortly, i think i may find myself in a similar situation as i'm not really a fan of tanks (i like the idea of 100+ soldiers on the table). my plan is to have anti-tank special weapon and heavy weapon squads.

[DadCRO]

I've heard grey knights are hard to beat, anyway. However, plasma vets, lascannon teams, and melta vets should help you with any MEQ and heavy vehicle problems. For orks, lots of flamers. Also, if you assault boyz instead of waiting for them to come to you, it really dulls the attack by taking away their bonus stuff. And tanks are not hard to build. The main chassis is a bit tedious, but if you keep plugging away at it, you'll be done before you know it.

[Ymmot (M.I.A)]

What does your list look like and how many points is your typical game?

[crazylegsmurphy]

Thanks guys,

The typical points we play are 1750 - 2000.

My list is pretty standard. I have Vendetta's, lots of plasma, 3 sentinels, and a bunch of troops. I'll post my list in a bit, but I was wondering if it's even possible to beat these armies without any tanks.

[WestRider]

I always see people suggesting Flamers against Orks, but my experience has been that, unless you've got them mounted up, by the time the Orks are in Flamer range, the Game is pretty much decided one way or another.

If going all-Infantry, I'd rather go with Missile Launchers, Grenade Launchers, and Mortars, so you've got some decent Strength shots against the Power Armour types and the Vehicles, and Blast Markers with some Range on them for the Boyz.

Oh, wait, you said you've got Vendettas. Load those up with Flamer Vets/PCSs. I thought you were talking no Vehicles of any kind.

[sj]

Psyker squad might be a good idea as that way you can have a large blast. MOO might be usefull too.

[crazylegsmurphy]

Here is one of my Army Lists.

I have a few more that are variations of this, but this is pretty close to most of the guys I have.

HQ
COMPANY COMMAND SQUAD (235)
Plasma Pistol - CC; Power Sword - CC; 3× Plasma Gun; Medic; Carapace Armour.
• CHIMERA: Extra Armour.

Elites
STORMTROOPERS (205)
• CHIMERA: Extra Armour.

Troops
PLATOON COMMAND SQUAD (95)
Plasma Pistol - PC; Power Sword - PC; 2× Melta Gun; Vox-Caster; Heavy Flamer.

INFANTRY SQUAD (170)
2× Grenade Launcher; Vox-Caster.
• COMMISSAR: Plasma Pistol; Power Sword.

HWS - MORTARS (60)

HWS - AUTOCANNONS (75)

HWS - LASCANNONS (105)

VETERAN SQUAD - ABLE (160)
2× Flamer; Heavy Flamer; Carapace Armor; Demolitions.

VETERAN SQUAD - BAKER (250)
Power Sword; Plasma Pistol; 3× Melta Gun; Carapace Armor; Demolitions.
• CHIMERA: Extra Armour.

VETERAN SQUAD - CHARLIE (175)
Power Sword; Plasma Pistol; 2× Grenade Launcher; Carapace Armor; Demolitions.
• VETERAN WEAPONS TEAM: Missile Launcher.

Fast Attack
3 ARMOURED SENTINELS (213)
1× Autocannon; 2× Plasma Cannon.

2 VENDETTA SQUAD (260)

2,003 points

[KRIEGEIRK]

It is difficult to play without tanks in the latest edition of the rulebook and codex since they are favored and relied on fairly heavily, but it is not impossible. Plasma, lascannon, melta will all come in handy. Since you play Krieg, get a Hades breach drill and try to come up where enemy armor is sitting, always have the potential to destroy an enemy vehicle with it, if not then the engineers can come and demo charge it

[crazylegsmurphy]

Thanks KRIEGEIRK,

I use DKoK models and the standard IG codex, not the DKoK codex. I think the biggest problems I've had is that because of the tough armour of say a Grey Knight army, I find it really hard to punch through with many of my guys.

[KRIEGEIRK]

No problem, I've heard Grey Knights are just a tough army to fight in general. Heavy and Special weapons are your friend if you are armorless.

[krasimirova]

Pointers coming:

HQ
COMPANY COMMAND SQUAD (235) *Point Error here*
Plasma Pistol - CC; Power Sword - CC; 3× Plasma Gun; Medic; Carapace Armour.
• CHIMERA: Extra Armour.

- Ekstra Armor is really not worth it here.. Other than that, change your Powersword to a Plasmapistol and remove your Medic to get another Plasmagunner..

30 points saved.

Elites
STORMTROOPERS (205)*Point Error here*
• CHIMERA: Extra Armour.

No special weaponry? Get some plasmas on that Stormtrooper squad if you insist on using a full size squad.. Personally i find they work best as a min (5 man) size squad with dual meltas to deepstrike and tank hunt..
Chimera, again Extra armour really really isn't worth the points.. 5 points, sure.. 10.. Maybe.. But current price is too much..

Points used: Chimera ML/HF + 10 ST's + 2 PG's = 15 points
Or 2 x 5 man with dual meltas = 5 points

Troops
PLATOON COMMAND SQUAD (95) *Point Error here*
Plasma Pistol - PC; Power Sword - PC; 2× Melta Gun; Vox-Caster; Heavy Flamer.

Remove power weapon, all your enemies are better in CC than you are..

4 x Regular flamers, put them in the ST's Chimera instead.. Against Orks this unit will take out whole mobs of boys..

INFANTRY SQUAD (170)
2× Grenade Launcher; Vox-Caster.
• COMMISSAR: Plasma Pistol; Power Sword.

No need for the Vox caster here.. What orders should these get anyway..?
Get some more Weaponry on this squad.. 3 x GL's or Flamers is best with BS3 units.. With only a 20 man blob, it won't get enough "wounds vs. powerweapons" I'd keep this unit with 3 x Flamers and a Commissar.. Put it on a home objective in cover.

HWS - MORTARS (60)

HWS - AUTOCANNONS (75)

HWS - LASCANNONS (105)

Lots and lots of cheap kill points here.. + You use too many different weapon setups.. Get 3 x 3 Autocannons, use them for trukks and rhinos.. But this is a place you wanna look if you get your arse handed to you in a sling.

VETERAN SQUAD - ABLE (160)
2× Flamer; Heavy Flamer; Carapace Armor; Demolitions.

Carapace armor + Demolitions, you are using a lot of points to upgrade a quite squezzy unit.. This is the unit in 1 of the vendettas right..? It might be a okay build in that case.. But if you find that your low on points to buy more weapons, this would be a good place to look..

VETERAN SQUAD - BAKER (250)
Power Sword; Plasma Pistol; 3× Melta Gun; Carapace Armor; Demolitions.
• CHIMERA: Extra Armour.

Again, extra armour and Powersword.. You arn't gettng much out of this against the enemies you are facing..

VETERAN SQUAD - CHARLIE (175)
Power Sword; Plasma Pistol; 2× Grenade Launcher; Carapace Armor; Demolitions.
• VETERAN WEAPONS TEAM: Missile Launcher.

Get them a 3d GL.. Remove Powersword.. Instead of Carapace, get them Camo cloaks.. They are a stationary unit, place them in cover.. Now you have a 3+ cover save instead of the 4+ armor save.

Fast Attack
3 ARMOURED SENTINELS (213) *Point Error here*
1× Autocannon; 2× Plasma Cannon.

Get 3 x Plasmacannons, that way you arn't loosing out on your shooting niches..

2 VENDETTA SQUAD (260)

No need to keep these in 1 squadron.. Put them in 2 different, more target redundancy and deployment options..

2,003 points

Just some of the pointers on how to make your list better..

-----------

Think about this list instead:

HQ
COMPANY COMMAND SQUAD (175)
Plasma Pistol, 4 x Plasmaguns
CHIMERA: ML/HF.

Elites
STORMTROOPERS (105)
5 x ST's + 2 x Meltas

STORMTROOPERS (105)
5 x ST's + 2 x Meltas

Troops
PLATOON COMMAND SQUAD (105)
4 x Flamers
CHIMERA: ML/HF.

INFANTRY SQUAD (145)
2× flamers, Commissar

HWS - MORTARS (60)

HWS - AUTOCANNONS (75)

HWS - LASCANNONS (105)

VETERAN SQUAD - ABLE (160)
2× Flamer; Heavy Flamer; Carapace Armor; Demolitions.

VETERAN SQUAD - BAKER (225)
Plasma Pistol; 3× Melta Gun; Carapace Armor; Demolitions.
• CHIMERA: ML/HF

VETERAN SQUAD - CHARLIE (130)
Plasma Pistol; 3× Grenade Launcher; Camocloaks.
• VETERAN WEAPONS TEAM: Missile Launcher.

Fast Attack
3 ARMOURED SENTINELS (225)
3× Plasma Cannon.

Vendetta (130)

Vendetta (130)

- 1875 points -

Now what you are missing here:

- Capabillity to kill Squads of MEQs: Plasma CCS (dedicated) Then you have LC's from the vendettas (but these should go towards de-meching of Battlewagons and such.. same goes for the LC HWT. You might also be able to get one of those demo charges off against a MEQ unit, but it will be hard..

- Hordes: Flamer CCS, Heavy Flamer on your Chimeras, Flamer veteran squad.. Pretty covered.

- Anti Mech: Vendettas, Autocannon team.. I'd get some more Autocannons or Missile launchers here (To double in the anti MEQ role...)

Hope it helps a bit

Kras..

[crazylegsmurphy]

Wow, Thanks Kras!

I don't have enough models to do some of that list (extra Stormtroopers), but I think I can do most of it. I have a few other squads that I think I can use that'll work. I have a game on Monday, so we'll see if this helps.

Thanks again,

CLM

[krasimirova]

No worries.. That is why the Board is here..

Hope it helps you "win" more..

Btw. I think it seems a bit harsh your friends saying that they don't wanna play with you because of your lack of tanks..

[crazylegsmurphy]

Ya, it's lame, but I think they're just tired of not really getting a challenge. They are convinced it's because I don't have tanks.

The major issue I usually face with all the armies I play is that they put their troops in transports which take me the entire game to destroy. By the time I get one or two of them killed, they have "pie plated" me to death.

[emptyhat]

If you do have to give in and build some tanks then you should go for a sponsonless demolisher and a couple of hellhounds which you can weapon swap to banewolves.

As for killing transports, as Tony Blair once said, "Autocannons, autocannons, autocannons"

[krasimirova]

IMO you have the tools to de-mech in your list.. I think you might need to consider getting target priorities strait..<-- But i don't know you or the amount of games you have done.. So it might be 100% wrong..

[hektorreborn]

Bring some Auto cannons for the transprts, Scouting Gunships with melta CCs or vets can give you some punch early on for enemy armor. Other than that i like grenade launchers cause they re dirt cheap

[destroyerlord]

Tanks are sssoooo much fun though!

I love my tanks and run 6 LRBT along with 4 chimera and a burny tank in my 1750 list.

As has been said in other posts you can easily run a non tank list and be competitive. I am of the opinion that against the bog standard units of most armies you need quantity over quality and guard can give that in spades. FRFSRF from a 30 man blob should easily put down enough shots to wipe out pretty much what ever they point at up to 24" away. That just leaves you to deal with getting the guys out of vehicles. The best voiced opinion to deal with these is definately Autocannons. High enough strength to nail chimera front armour and pretty much any side armour. Add to this a couple of gunships with lascannons and you should be able to pop LRBT/Raider armour and the odd squad of melta vets for some up close shots at AP1 and you should have your opponents dealt with!

[vulpine]

Technically a vendetta takes the role of a tank (although ca t take as much return fire) and I would think anti tank shads can deal with your enemies tanks. So you should be fine...

However, the Russ in any/all/most forms is an fantastic and versatile tank, to leave home with out it would seam odd. It's like a Eldar player saying "nope I won't take Farseers, banshee or scorpion squad." Or Ork players saying "boyz? No thanks" or space wolves going "rhino? Pants to getting a lift! My men will walk"

[Rolling Thunder]

Valkyries.

[Lord General Armstrong]

How to win without tanks?

Artillery
Chimera IFV's
Hellhound Fast Attack Vehicles
Valkyrie Gunships
Sentinel Recon Walkers
More Infantry than you can count

[Rolling Thunder]

Aside from the fact that artillery and chimeras are tanks.

[Lord General Armstrong]

Mar 27, 2012 2:38:25 GMT -5 Rolling Thunder said:

Aside from the fact that artillery and chimeras are tanks.

In 40k, yes they have the tank designation. But the classification of artillery and armoured transports would suggest otherwise.

[The Guardsmen]

I would say if you want to win without tanks you need more infantry.

for 2000pts a guard commander can take three platoons of standard guardsmen including 15 squads of guardsmen (that's 120 lasguns and 31 grenade launchers ) and 9+ heavy weapons teams! (27 lascannon teams or 36 Heavy bolters!)

I don't know all the point values or stat lines but I hear grey knight armies are really small so you could overwhelm him with concentrated lascannon fire and bog him down in an endless tide of guardsmen. For orks you have 36 HB each firing 3 shots (I think) thats 108 shots plus you have 31 grenade launchers. No matter how many orks there are you'll be able to decimate them before they reach you.

*Disclaimer* I don't have a codex in front of me and I am relying on a auto list calculator so my numbers may be off ...