How to counter this list: Necrons

[krasimirova]

Jack over at Imperius Dominatus, just put up a bat rep with the following list:

HQ:
- Nemesor Zahndrekh
- Court:
- Harbinger of Despair: Veil of Darkness
- Harbinger of Eternity: Chronometron
- Harbinger of Destruction: Solar Pulse

- Vargard Obyron

- Overlord: Phaeron, Resurrection Orb, Warscythe
- Court:
- Harbinger of Despair: Veil of Darkness
- Harbinger of Eternity: Chronometron

Troops:
- 10x Immortals
- 10x Immortals: Tesla Carbines
- 20x Warriors

Fast Attack:
- 7x Canoptek Scarabs
- 7x Canoptek Scarabs

Heavy Support:
- Annihilation Barge
- Annihilation Barge

He played against Eldar and the list relies 100% on the fortune/doom rolls from the farseers, which isn't the hardest to counter, since there isn't any runes of warding in the list.. But back to the Necron phaser list..

I've been sitting and thinking it through, trying to find a counter for the list (Not a tailored list mind you, but a tactic against it) because I do think that the Necron list is very nifty and nice, but also quite dangerous.. So before i meet it, and i will, at the table.

I'd like if the community here on IGMB would come with their imput on how to beat/counter the rapid deployment of the Veils..

Kras..

[Rolling Thunder]

It's built around special characters. While I have no idea what the various characters do or their rules are, pranging the special characters, I feel, can not go amiss.

[krasimirova]

Problem would mainly be to actually catch the special characters.. This is the most mobile list i have seen played in 40K.. It beats DE in mobility imo..

Thing is:

Veil; teleports units around the board.. (as in DS)
Solar Pulse; Night fighting on the opponents turn (1 use).. So limits the possibility of alpha striking them..
Chronometron; lets you re-roll a dice.. (in this case mostly on 1 of the scatter dice)
Zahndrekh; Gives a USR.. Mainly Tankhunters or Stealth in this list..
Vargard Obyron; IC that can teleport with his unit within 6" of Zahndrekh.. Without scatter.. + He is by far the best CC unit in the Necron codex..

That is the carry of the list..

Scarabs and Annihilation barges are "just" what they are.. Mainly to overload on targets the turns where there isn't nightfighting and to draw fire away from the 'porting lord units..

---

I am a bit split on it.. Either just go for redundancy or force the positioning of opponents DS possibilities with throw away units..

But if anybody has any fresh ideas on it.. Sometimes all it needs is a new pair of eyes..

Kras..

[destroyerlord]

Cover that table with DS blocking stuff, decent terrain and a guard list (be it tanks of infantry) will take up your side of the table so if he comes close he will probably mishap. LRBT templates on the scarabs to waste them (vulnerable to blast). Anything that can drop the anni barges will be good cos they have a lot of fire power but after 1 pen they reduce to AV11.

If I was running the crons I would drop the 20 warriors and give the porting lordie type a bodyguard of praetorians.

1 thing to note is that the 2 named guys are 2 HQ choices so a Phaeron Lord would not be allowed in there.

The only things you can really do about the DS immortals are to 1) give your opponent a hard time placing units 2) give your self plenty of units that can divert to counter them. Chimeras with infantry inside should be enough to reduce a squad of immortals to ineffectve.

[Ymmot (M.I.A)]

I'm pretty sure Zahndrekh has a special rule that allows his army to take Obyron and have it count as a single HQ

[destroyerlord]

So it does. My error as I NEVER use named characters! I would rather spend extra on the core but hey!

[caimheul]

I'm not sure how much help this will be, as I don't quite know how he sets up the royal courts (I'm assuming that they stay intact rather than attaching to any of his troop choices) but if he is using Vagard Obyron to veil any of his squads, his rules allow you a fairly simple (albeit sacrificial) way to strand the unit he is veiling around for at least a turn: if you assault Nemesor Zahndrekh, Vangard Obyron has to pile in regardless of where he is on the table (which isn't all that much help should the unit he was with be just 6" away). The Phaeron I'm assuming is used to make the big block of warriors much harder to keep dead (Rez orb) and give them relentless for a massive volley of shots. He has to keep at least one of the royal courts together (can only attach one member of a royal court to a squad), giving you a good target for plasma goodness (Nemesor will still have a 3+ Invuln, which is better for you than the 2+ armour) but no other model will be getting anything other than their RP rolls. AP 3 can also manage in a pinch, since only Nemesor and Vangard have better than a 3+ save in his army. No matter how mobile his army is, artillery can reach him on the table imo. Scarabs will (as usual) be best dealt with by templates (damn swarm), I don't know how many times I've had to clear off almost all of my scarabs from a single template hit!

[shifty60]

Sorry, a little off topic. Regarding the Swarm rule and templates, does it only apply to the "flame" template or blast templates too?

Carry on.

[krasimirova]

No worries Shifty, it is a good question..

All types of template weapons doubles it wounds against swarms.. So flamers, Blast and Large blasts all work good against swarms..

[shifty60]

Thanks! Good to know if my buddy ever brings out ripper swarms.

I have never played vs Necrons so I can’t be of much help, I just know that they seem scary with the Gauss rule, we’ll be back rule, and night fighting rule? I was looking at some of their stat lines and was wonder is it worth it to charge them with power weapons considering their low “I” and “A”?

[krasimirova]

Well the thing with necrons is their mid-range shooting and their volume of shooting.. Scarabs are normally just used as a distraction (unless you are facing a dedicated Scarab Farm list ofc.) to keep your guns away from his Warriors/Immortals, until they are in range.. (this is the same reason they have solar pulse' and Imotekh)

This is ofcause a over simplification of the Necron codex, but still gives a good idea about who they play..

Now assaulting Necrons, problem is hitting on 4's, wounding on 5's, just like against mariens, and then they have reanimation protocol (maybe with a Orb to back it up) so 33.34% - 50.00% of your wounds will get back up. Now this is normally large bricks of warriors/immortals, and these you shouldn't charge..

That being said, Necrons isn't a auto loose i CC, assaulting "grot squads" (small 5 man units) or depleted squads can turn out in your favour... But as allways, you need to bring them down with weight of numbers..

[Trooper One-Nine-Seven-Four]

Remember that Search Lights (which pretty much most Guard tanks have) go quite some way towards negating the night fighting rules. Reds and I discovered this the last time we played each other, and I popped a solar pulse which wound up being super-ineffective because he had a bunch of Russes... Of course if you're facing lots of Scarabs, you're going to have to deal with them quickly so they don't nom your tanks. Since he doesn't have Tomb Spyders in the list to buff the Scarabs, you should be able to take them out if you concentrate enough weapons on them, especially double strength ones to get instant death.

Not sure what to tell you about the veils. It looks like he's got one to stick with two of his troop choices. The best advice I can give is "Kill them all!" That being said, aside from the Scarabs it looks like his list is really lacking in dedicated anti-tank, so maybe throwing a mech list at him would be the way to go...

[caimheul]

@trooper One-Nine-Seven-Four: you have forgotten about the joy that is Gauss weapons. While I concede that the scarabs are the only dedicated anti-tank, the blob of warriors has a reasonable chance of glancing a tank to death, or at least into uselessness. The Gauss Immortals also have the ability to penetrate the side armour of Chimera hulls, (only on 6's and there is only ten, so less likely, but this means a 1/3 chance of inflicting damage as opposed to a 1/6) and if they have one of the Veil of Darknesses (like the old flying circus), then the opponent will probably be shooting for the sides. The Scarabs are definitely the highest threat once they get in melee with your vehicles, but besides Str 6 weapons to insta-death bases, blast weapons can double the number of wounds, so strength 6+ blast weapons will insta-death 2 bases for every wound caused.

Building on your mention of search lights, a scout sentinel with no upgrades other than a search light could scout move, then move closer in their first movement phase, increasing the likelihood of being to shoot a unit with night fighting in place (average roll of 7 on 2d6, equating to 21 inches) thus allowing for an alpha strike, at least on one of his units. Barrage units can also shoot normally in night fighting, with the addition of having to add an extra d6 to any scatter.
Edit: I just noticed that guard artillery units all have searchlights... rather than jack this thread, I'm going to go start a new one over in the Tanks section... commissar.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=Tanks&thread=15185

krasimirova: If you can manage to win CC, typically Necrons aren't going to be escaping due to their average initiative which only allows them to go before PFs. And they're hitting on 4's as well AFTER taking casualties but BEFORE any RP rolls, (although wounding on 3's) but unless it's a Lord or special character, it only has 1 attack. I always expect a charge on my Necron shooty units because the enemy typically prefers their odds in a CC fight than taking another round of shooting. Also, except for Obyron's Ghostwalk mantle, they can't use a Veil to escape CC in the new dex.

Also, I just noticed you mentioned he's using the Chronometron's to reroll the scatter for his Veils, I assume the Necron player is keeping his royal courts together then instead of turning them into sergeants for his troops as each unit can only have one member of a royal court join them, and the Chronometron only allows you to reroll dice for the unit the Harbinger is in. Nevermind, just checked the FAQ... sneaky sneaky. Regardless of how mobile his list is, it can't escape the IG's long guns!

His tesla weapons have the chance of tearing through any large blobs, not to mention the arc rule the twin-linked destructors have on the barges. If you go with the DS denial setup, make his Barges a high priority target, since they have the majority of his tesla, and arc can cause the lightning to jump to other squads within 6".

[Trooper One-Nine-Seven-Four]

Apr 5, 2012 10:54:13 GMT -5 caimheul said:

@trooper One-Nine-Seven-Four: you have forgotten about the joy that is Gauss weapons. While I concede that the scarabs are the only dedicated anti-tank, the blob of warriors has a reasonable chance of glancing a tank to death, or at least into uselessness. The Gauss Immortals also have the ability to penetrate the side armour of Chimera hulls, (only on 6's and there is only ten, so less likely, but this means a 1/3 chance of inflicting damage as opposed to a 1/6) and if they have one of the Veil of Darknesses (like the old flying circus), then the opponent will probably be shooting for the sides. The Scarabs are definitely the highest threat once they get in melee with your vehicles, but besides Str 6 weapons to insta-death bases, blast weapons can double the number of wounds, so strength 6+ blast weapons will insta-death 2 bases for every wound caused.

I hadn't forgotten about Gauss, however I don't consider it a reliable way of dealing with a tank quickly. In my game against Reds his Hellhound absorbed three turns of shooting from my Warrior blob and an Immortal squad before it finally became a piece of scenery... On the other side of the board, my Scarab swarm nommed his Demolisher into a wreck in a single combat.

[caimheul]

Apr 5, 2012 14:00:49 GMT -5 Trooper One-Nine-Seven-Four said:

I hadn't forgotten about Gauss, however I don't consider it a reliable way of dealing with a tank quickly. In my game against Reds his Hellhound absorbed three turns of shooting from my Warrior blob and an Immortal squad before it finally became a piece of scenery... On the other side of the board, my Scarab swarm nommed his Demolisher into a wreck in a single combat.

I definitely agree with your assessment (which would be why I normally have a couple heavy destroyers to back up my scarab swarms). While I miss turbo boasting scarab swarms providing cover to my entire army as it marches forward (and thanks to stealth having a 2+ armour save themselves) the entropic strike is fearsome against vehicles (not to mention multi-wound models). Although in this army list should the tesla units still be active, they're dedicated anti-infantry, leaving the gauss to (attempt) handle either one. I haven't had too much luck with gauss vs. vehicles either, but sometimes the necron player gets lucky (except if they're me)! ;D

[Trooper One-Nine-Seven-Four]

Yeah, I used my Heavy Destroyers to immobilize Reds' Demolisher which guaranteed auto hits for the Scarabs. I'm tweaking my list, and have gotten enough HD minis, that I can now run two squads of mixed Destroyers and Heavy Destroyers, so wound allocation games can be played.

[RedsandRoyals]

Apr 6, 2012 22:49:23 GMT -5 Trooper One-Nine-Seven-Four said:

Yeah, I used my Heavy Destroyers to immobilize Reds' Demolisher which guaranteed auto hits for the Scarabs. I'm tweaking my list, and have gotten enough HD minis, that I can now run two squads of mixed Destroyers and Heavy Destroyers, so wound allocation games can be played.

Didn't you strip the gun off it too? I remember it was pretty mushed by incoming fire, which made it a perfect target for scarabs.

Reds

[Trooper One-Nine-Seven-Four]

I don't remember if they managed to disarm it or not... It was long ago, and grad school drama has melted my brain.