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Post by zeke on May 25, 2012 4:08:43 GMT -5
Hey everyone. So in the past few days, I've played my friends BA 3 times, and lost 3 times. Now, I'm rather new to the Imperial Guard, so most of my lists I'm trying new things out. This is a rough outline of the list that I used (give or take a few units)
CCS- 2x Meltas, 2x Plasma, Chimera
2x Vets - 3x Melta, Chimera (ML, HF) Vets - 3x Plasma, Chimera (ML, HF) PCS- 4x Flamers 30 man Infablob- 3x GL, 3x autocannons
2x Hellhounds w/ MM
Leman Russ w/ LC (needed to spend points) Exterminator w/ HB, HB sponsoons.
He ran something like- Dante
Honor guard- 2x flamers, 4x meltas
2 sang priests
3x 10 man assault squads (PF, MG)
3x 2 attack bike squads w/ MM
He would attach dante with a RAS, deepstriking them and using them to pop the leman russes. The honor guard would deepstrike in also, making short work of the infablob.
So here is what I have had a lot of trouble with:
1) How can I stop his assault marines from ripping my guys up? They have the ability to jump up and close in on my lines so quickly, and hoping from cover to cover gave him a good cover save.
2) My veterans have been my bread and butter up till now. Now I'm thinking should i swap out the lasguns for shotguns? What do you all use?
3) Are exterminators any good, or did I just have terrible luck with this game.
4) Any advise for using an infablob? I really had no idea what I was doing with them. I would put them on an objective and have then shoot at anything that came close...
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
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Post by krasimirova on May 25, 2012 4:52:21 GMT -5
Hi there Zeke.. I'll give you some pointers on it..
List looks fine with a few execptions:
The exterminator won't do any good against this list.. He has 3+ and a FNP save, so even if you wound on 2+ he still gets 3+ followed by a 4+ save, it can be okay, but 4 shot simply isn't gonna force enough wounds on him..
I'd proxy that tank to be a std. LRMBT.. S8 AP3 will deny both his saves.
And while we are at it (list tailoring here: Beware:P)
Hellhounds, they suffer from the same as the exterminator, AP4 so the marines don't even need their cover save..
If you insist on using the dogs of war (hellhound chassis) you will need to use either the devil dog or the bane wolf.. Devil dog has the range you are looking for and the damage output to kick the teeth in on anything in his list, but lacks the "accuracy" of the banewolf, who lacks the range you want and still allows them to have FNP (which is still a major improvement from 3+ and FNP mind you!)
Drop the lascannon from the LRMBT and get all plasma in your CCS..
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That is the list for you..
Now tactic wise, he is elite (not extremely, but enough so that we can use it against him!) + the fact that he allways wants to come towards you..
Okay here is a tactic you might wanna use:
2 x Lemans and Devildogs are placed along the board edge (they both have enough range to hurt alot of things.. (If you use bane wolves, then these should be in reserve.. No need to drive out and meet him, he is coming to your door.. You just need to prepare the shotgun)
Veterans and CCS will be placed close by ( not 100% parking lot, but very close) we need to make sure that he cannot deep strike (even with only 1d6 scatter or no scatter) utilize terrain to this as well, deep striking in terrain isn't anything you/he wanna do..
Now the blob squad and the PCS.. These will be placed on the board AS SEPERATE squads.. Yes they are more kill points, but you need them to fail their combats: To catch his squads out in the open.. They are in all purpose and intent speed bump units.
Place these squads so that you cover the 6" distance from your tanks, deny them the melta dice!
Now if you have deployed right.. He won't be able to assault/melta your tanks, he can still shoot the tank with S8 AP1 weapons, but he won't get 2d6 pen.. This should allow you to use plasma, melta, Battle tank and Melta cannon to his face for 1 round.. (Which should hurt him, since he just deep struck and most likely didn't run since he shot..)
His next turn you should have placed your squads so that he can only attack your infantry squads or PCS, if you have a hard time achiving this you will need to have dismounted your veterans and CCS and use their chimera to place in the way of the charges..
Now don't place you squads to close to each other.. We don't want them to be multicharged and thereby open up for your tanks..
Protect your tanks and your plasmaguns! these will win you the game.. EVERYTHING els is just there to make sure they survive to pump wounds into the assault squads..
In objective games..
Do 100% the same thing.. 100%.. Don't split up.. He only has 3 10 man squads of jump marines.. If he puts 1 on a home objective.. Great less bodies coming your way.. You have the range to pummel him with your Lemans and still have mobility to contest with your Banewolves/devildogs and mobility in your veteran squad chimeras..
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Finishing thoughts:
His army is assault / 6" range army.. He will come to your door.. Shoot him.. Sacrifice units to deny him "good" close combats, make sure they fail (allocate max wounds to your sgt.)... Shoot him again..
Don't spread out, he will deep strike and alpha strike you..
Deny good deep strikes via. you infantry platoon and your chimeras (empty) He only has 2 flamers remember..
In objective games, play defensive.. He is ultra offensive, you can't play that offensive with IG, but we are the best in the current game at playing defensivly.. Let his squads rage and assault your throw away units.. Late game dash for the objectives late game..
Hope it helps Zeke..
Kras..
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Post by zeke on May 25, 2012 18:00:12 GMT -5
Thanks a bunch Kras. I'll be sure to give it a whirl and let you know how it goes.
Another thing: does anyone have any advise on whether to use shotguns or lasguns for the veterans?
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Post by krasimirova on May 26, 2012 3:35:24 GMT -5
Personally i use shotguns for everything except plasma gun veterans..
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Post by Pax Urbis Pax Imperi on May 27, 2012 2:41:06 GMT -5
Thanks a bunch Kras. I'll be sure to give it a whirl and let you know how it goes. Another thing: does anyone have any advise on whether to use shotguns or lasguns for the veterans? Since you are using krasimirova's advice, shotguns are not the way to go. You want to shoot at range, which means at a distance. Shotguns are for the up close and personal kill, or to soften a target before you assault them. They have the same strength, AP value and amount of shots as a lasgun at range, but you can't use the FRF, SRF order like you could with a stardard las. Personally, I prefer the lasgun, but this is because I also favor long distance shooting attacks. In addition to the Russ, you also have the option of Artillery. A Basilisk has a great strength, and the same AP as a Russ, and you can direct fire if they are within your minimum range and not out of sight. A Medusa has the best Strength and AP, and it also can be direct fired. But it only has a 36" range, and no Ordnance Barrage. Since you friend uses cover, perhaps a Colossus would be useful, as it has the AP to kill marines AND ignores cover. Its weakness is that it is indirect fire only (so full scatter on a miss) and it has a minimum range, so once they get in range of that, switch to target further afield, if there are any.
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Post by zeke on May 27, 2012 2:43:37 GMT -5
I've been doing a lot of reading, from what you told me and other stuff on other forums, and this is a list i whipped up real quick like. How effective do you think this would be?
CCS- 4x PG, PP, Chimera
Vet 1- 3x MG, Chimera Vet 2- 3x PG, Chimera
Platoon 1- PCS Squad 1- GL, AC Squad 2- GL, AC Squad 3- GL, AC
Platoon 2- PCS Squad 1 Squad 2 Squad 3
Leman Russ Leman Russ Leman Russ Leman Russ
Total: 1505
Here would be my plan for the list. Deployment: Turtle myself in one of the corners with the russes in the back, using the separate squads from platoon 1 to fill the gaps, to prevent him from deep striking. Place the veteran chimeras on the side that isn't the table edge, and have platoon 2 be sort of cannon fodder, surging forward and acting as a speed bump for his assault marines and other things.
How does this sound?
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Post by krasimirova on May 27, 2012 3:43:40 GMT -5
Eventhou I don't like the "naked" platoon, since it is quite a few kill points, I do like the list..
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Post by Deleted on May 27, 2012 19:47:38 GMT -5
A decent adequte list.
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Post by krasimirova on May 28, 2012 4:15:44 GMT -5
Btw. I assume you are running you lemans as 1/1/2 squadrons right..? Thats how i'd run them anyway..
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Post by zeke on May 28, 2012 13:54:37 GMT -5
Why would you squadron 2 of the russes? I never really figured out why people liked squadrons
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Post by Ymmot (M.I.A) on May 28, 2012 14:28:47 GMT -5
Because you only have 3 heavy support slot choices avalible on the FOC and you must run squadrons if you want to use more than 3 LRBTs.
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Post by Pax Urbis Pax Imperi on May 28, 2012 22:46:15 GMT -5
Why would you squadron 2 of the russes? I never really figured out why people liked squadrons While squadrons have weaknesses (immobilization = wreck, vulnerable to multi-charge attacks, template attacks may scatter) they have some strengths as well, such as stunned results go to shaken, and the ability to really hurt something. In this case, two large blast templates that hit could make a marine squad just go away.
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Post by RedsandRoyals on May 28, 2012 23:42:06 GMT -5
Why would you squadron 2 of the russes? I never really figured out why people liked squadrons While squadrons have weaknesses (immobilization = wreck, vulnerable to multi-charge attacks, template attacks may scatter) they have some strengths as well, such as stunned results go to shaken, and the ability to really hurt something. In this case, two large blast templates that hit could make a marine squad just go away. But you could get those two blasts on the squad anyway from tanks in separate units, and if you were really concerned about stunned going to shaken, then you could spring for extra armour. It's just not worth being forced to throw both your Russ templates at one target all the time, and the 50% chance of losing them to a pen hit. That said, there are some builds where they work, and can be fun to play with, but in general, I think most people would be better off avoiding them. As Ymmot said, the best reason is 'I want more tanks in my list", which is more than enough reason in my books. As for shotties, I'd second Kras. For Plasma squads or ranged vets, use lasguns for the reach. For assault teams, particularly Melta units, they're a perfect match. I can't count the times where being able to shoot, then charge, has saved my squad from annihilation by getting shot apart or charged by a superior unit. At the most, you can mop up damaged squads or tie up units coming out of a popped transport, and at worst, you can tar pit an enemy unit for a bit longer, and do some damage in the process. Granted, with lasguns, you get to fire at longer range if you remain stationary, but the whole point of melta squads is to be close and moving. Reds
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Post by TheHoboHunter on May 29, 2012 2:24:58 GMT -5
I'm not familiar with Squadron rules, but does the firing work like every other standard unit, and thus simultaneously within the squad(ron)?
If it does, then I can see the benefit of firing two LRBTs on one target of marines at once. That way, you'd have the potential to hose down the squad in more wounds than it has models in one instance, forcing wound allocation on important members and increasing the overall hits between the two of them (as the second tank normally would have a smaller group to try and hit, and invariably to-wound rolls will end up with a lucky marine escaping on a fateful 'anything but a 1' roll; as opposed to hosing the unit down with 18 hits between the two, at once).
Personally though, the increased vulnerability via Immobilised results is what turns me off running more than 3 Russes per battle.
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Post by krasimirova on May 29, 2012 7:21:44 GMT -5
I've been running lists with 2 std. russes and 3 heavy bolters on each.. That puts out 2 large blasts and 18 heavy bolter shots, which is enough to both annihilate MEQ squads, but also serves well against TEQ and Paladin squads as well.. That is the only Squadron setup i'd use thou since the LRMBT has the range to stay out of trouble, and dual Demolishers / Executioners is a bit overkill..
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Post by zeke on May 30, 2012 0:45:05 GMT -5
Thanks for the advise guys.
And kras, I can see how two demolishers firing on the same target can be a little overkill.
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Post by kobracommander on May 31, 2012 7:12:58 GMT -5
Hey zeke, let me add my 2 cents.
I just recently faced an army build a lot like this. It was objective based game, but that didn't matter, why? Because this list is so aggressive, that if all he does is drop to get the objectives, you WILL win by superior firepower. So what is he going to do...the predictable, drop near your units and assault them.
So what do you do? You play defensively as others have said, but I wouldn't get too caught up about how many inches they can drop close to me etc. I was playing an all mech list so, I didn't have anyone in the open to just "be" assaulted. I placed my units close together. Not too close, but close enough, so that if one unit was attacked, I had at least 2 or 3 other units that had guns on the attacker. When his two elite units drop down, they have their choice of unit. That's fine by me, why? Because when they shoot and assault that unit, they will utterly annihilate it...good! Then the rest of my units shove their plasmaguns and battle cannons up the enemy's @ss. His two really quite expensive, uber units are now toast. And they destroyed what, a maximum of 160 pts apiece...i'll take that trade. Once dante and the honor guard are dead, you just turn and shoot at the rest of the marines. They die just as easily.
Oh I should mention if you really want to put the screws to him, take a master of the fleet. It will be harder for him to get his reserves on time, hopefully forcing them to come in later, and then one at a time. He wont change his strategy because he can't. He cant let dante and Co drop away from you, because you will just have more time to destroy them without him destroying anything. So even if that's the only thing coming in this turn, he will still put them in your face. I love blood angels, they only have really 3 or 4 good builds (at least common ones that I see) and they aren't very flexible if you know how to throw a monkey wrench into their plans. Guard on the other hand...extremely flexible:D
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Post by zeke on Jun 1, 2012 1:08:26 GMT -5
Makes sense kobra. Thanks for the sound strategy. But I know my friend, and I know he's going to argue this topic when it comes up.
When I use these "speed bump" units, since his marines have jump packs, can they jump over my speed bump squads, or does he have to attack them? Sorry, while I have played for a number of years, I haven't played too many games, and thus don't have an extremely firm grasp on the rules.
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Post by kobracommander on Jun 1, 2012 9:15:26 GMT -5
No, that's my point. The "speed bump" unit is something he will want to attack...like a chimera with plasma vets. If he ignores it and goes after my leman russ....great, because he's still going to be in range of my plasma vets when they fry his squad to goo. If he goes after the plasma vets, then my LRMBT does the work. Having each unit you have being supported by at least 2 other units. If he attacks one, then the other two pounce. See my point?
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Post by Pax Urbis Pax Imperi on Jun 1, 2012 14:50:26 GMT -5
Like any good game of chess, make sure that when you move, you are covered by one or more pieces, and each one supporting the other.
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Post by zeke on Jun 1, 2012 20:19:43 GMT -5
Thanks kobra! I'll give that strategy a try and see how it goes.
And Pax, thats my problem. I am probably on of the worst chess players ever to walk this earth.
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Post by kobracommander on Jun 3, 2012 3:57:40 GMT -5
Yes, let me know how you do. To follow up, the way I do it, is to just make the choice hard for him. If he's a decent player then he should be thinking to himself, "Hmmm, if I attack this unit, then those other two units are going to have a very good chance of just vaporizing my squad...but if I don't then the outcome is even worse..." The trick is, is to get him to think, "...well, I really don't have much choice in the matter, I have to do it and hope it works out alright..." When you force a player to think this way, you've already won, because YOU are controlling the game. YOU are forcing your opponent to make take actions he doesn't really want to do, because he has no other recourse. ...judging from that paragraph above, it sounds like I take this game way too seriously, lol. What can I say, its a game of tactics, and I like to win
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Post by zeke on Jun 5, 2012 17:23:54 GMT -5
Alright so my friend and I are going to have a little rematch tonight. Since I'm new to IG, I wanted to try some new stuff (ratlings). Here's a list I whipped up real quickly: CCS- 4x PG, PP, Chimera
Vet 1- 3x MG, Chimera Vet 2- 3x MG, Chimera Vet 3- 3x PG, Chimera Vet 4- 3x PG, Chimera
8 Ratlings
Devil Dog - MM Devil Dog - MM
Leman Russ - HB, HBS Leman Russ - HB, HBS
The only thing I am considering is dropping one of the plasma vet squads to make a spot for another Russ with sponsoons. Any input?
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Post by Peter Cooman on Jun 5, 2012 17:32:39 GMT -5
I think you should keep the plasmas. Better againts FNP.
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Post by zeke on Jun 6, 2012 15:41:39 GMT -5
So I just finished my game tonight with my friend, and the Guard came out on top.
We rolled for game and deployment, and got seize ground (4 objectives), set up 1 on his table edge, 2 on opposite sides in the middle, and one on my side, and dawn of war.
My list was above, and his was as follows:
Memphiston Sang. Priest
3x10 Assault marines w/ PF, 2 Meltas
2x2 Attack bikes w/ MM
2x Typhoons
Whirlwind
To sum it up, I won 2 objectives to 0, because he charged at me with all of his troop choices, and I killed them all, making him unable to capture anything. Thanks for all the support my fellow IGMBers!
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