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Post by jjakaalbinoboy on May 25, 2012 6:51:40 GMT -5
Hey folks, having trouble defeating my mates DE, they're fast and make it into shooting range T1/2, disembark an tear my guardsmen apart in CC. I've heard advice that I need more armour and Hydras?
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Post by krasimirova on May 25, 2012 8:02:35 GMT -5
Hi there JJ, welcome to IGMB..  Now don't take this the wrong way: Not alot of info you are giving people to work with here.. Is he using Venoms or Raiders..? Trueborn and Kabalite's with Blasters? Is he running a bride list..? Any Ravagers..? What is your list..? Do you have a "This is what came in the battle force" - army or something els..? It really isn't to be a pain, but you need to come up with a better post if you expect people to take the time to help you out..:/ Hope it helps a bit.. Kras.. |
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Post by jjakaalbinoboy on May 25, 2012 8:18:05 GMT -5
No worries. So to clear a few things up (that I intentional left vague in my initial post as I wanted diverse responses) was that we usually play 1500-2000 points on a random terrain board thats a pretty average size, long edge to long edge. Also, price/cost of the models and the fact I have to go FW (slightly frustrating) or convert certain ones such as Hydras is not an issue. Althought having 4-6 Hydras seems a bit extreme lol.
He can cross the table into melee in one or maybe if im lucky two turns, a) that doesnt give me much time to take down his transports/armour an b) even if I do it makes little difference when he can do it on foot haha. I'm going to add in a Manticore and Hydra and mount up my foot sloggers in chimera and see if it helps.
My DE opponent usually goes wyches and warriors with archon an incubi in raiders with ravager support. If he feels like some CC he brings a Talos and Grotesque for fun.
Normally I go footslogger with 2 Infantry Platoons with CCS, plasma weapons an AC HWS. Then storm troopers with plasma, plasma sentinels (amazing at tighing up a CC unit that cant hurt it haha) and a leman russ of some sort for Heavy support.
I'm thinking of switching from Infantry Platoons to Veteran Squads mounted in Chimera, with Hydras, Manticore and Leman Russ for Heavy Support, Sentintels for Fast Attack, small storm trooper squads with plasma to reserve/deep strike as and when needed.
I've had some success with my Valkyrie with Storm Troopers in as it can swoop in drop them where needed such as an objective and then use its lascannon to take out transports.
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Post by jjakaalbinoboy on May 25, 2012 12:53:12 GMT -5
OK, army list so far . . .
HQ: Company Command Squad (305 pts)
. . 4 Company Command Squad, (Medi-pack; Plasma gun x3)
. . . . 1 Company Commander (Plasma Pistol)
. . . . 1 Astropath
. . . . 1 Bodyguard
. . . . 1 Bodyguard
. . . . 1 Master of Ordnance
. . . . 1 Chimera (Turret Multi-Laser; Hull Heavy Flamer; Extra Armor; Pintle Storm Bolter)
Troops: Infantry Platoon (655 pts)
. . 1 Infantry Platoon
. . . . 4 Platoon Command Squad (Medi-pack; Plasma gun x3)
. . . . . . 1 Platoon Commander (Plasma Pistol)
. . . . . . 1 Chimera (Turret Multi-Laser; Hull Heavy Flamer; Extra Armor; Pintle Storm Bolter)
. . . . 9 Infantry Squad (Plasma gun x1)
. . . . . . 1 Sergeant (Plasma Pistol)
. . . . . . 1 Chimera (Turret Multi-Laser; Hull Heavy Flamer; Extra Armor; Pintle Storm Bolter)
. . . . 9 Infantry Squad (Plasma gun x1)
. . . . . . 1 Sergeant (Plasma Pistol)
. . . . . . 1 Chimera (Turret Multi-Laser; Hull Heavy Flamer; Extra Armor; Pintle Storm Bolter)
. . . . 3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Autocannon x3)
. . . . 3 Heavy Weapons Squad (Autocannon x3)
Troops: Veteran Squad (215 pts)
. . 7 Veteran Squad (Plasma gun x3)
. . . . 1 Veteran Heavy Weapon Team (Autocannon)
. . . . 1 Veteran Sergeant (Plasma Pistol)
. . . . 1 Chimera (Turret Multi-Laser; Hull Heavy Flamer; Extra Armor; Pintle Storm Bolter)
Fast Attack: Armoured Sentinel Squadron (225 pts)
. . 1 Armoured Sentinel Squadron
. . . . 1 Armoured Sentinel (Plasma Cannon)
. . . . 1 Armoured Sentinel (Plasma Cannon)
. . . . 1 Armoured Sentinel (Plasma Cannon)
Heavy Support: Hydra Flak Tank Battery (130 pts)
. . 1 Hydra Flak Tank Battery
. . . . 1 Hydra Flak Tank (Heavy Bolter; Camo Netting; Extra Armor; Hunter-killer Missile; Pintle Heavy Stubber)
Heavy Support: Leman Russ Squadron (210 pts)
. . 1 Leman Russ Squadron
. . . . 1 Leman Russ Battle Tank (Lascannon; Heavy Bolter Sponsons x2; Extra Armor; Pintle Storm Bolter)
Heavy Support: Manticore Rocket Launcher (215 pts)
. . 1 Manticore Rocket Launcher (Hull Heavy Bolter; Camo Netting; Extra Armor; Pintle Storm Bolter)
Total Roster Cost: 1,955 pts
Thoughts? Feedback? Got 45pts to play with, was wondering if I should take the Chimera off the two Infantry Squads in the Platoon and buy another Veteran Squad in Chimera? Then I could use the two footslogger squads as bubble wrap?
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Post by DadCRO on May 25, 2012 17:29:33 GMT -5
I have had problems with DE before. I put some commissars in my platoons, problem solved. Just take out wyches and raiders/ravagers ASAP.
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Post by Rolling Thunder on May 28, 2012 7:31:05 GMT -5
Okay...
Your PCS is packing too much plasma: Plasma you don't need them to pack. Only thing in a DE list in need of plasma-ing is Incubi. Strip them of their plasma, strip the medics, give them flamethrowers. Or grenade launchers.
Don't bother with an AC in the plasma Veteran squads.
Drop the Master of Ordnance, he's a special kind of useless.
Switch the plasma sentinels to HF sentinels or AC sentinels: Their only utility to you is as counterassault, tie-his, wyches-down-forever units.
Wrapping your platoons in chimeras is a good decision, means he has to destroy the chimera before he can assault the squad. You also need to strip off the pintle Stormbolters (tres useless) and Extra Armour upgrades from your chimerae. I'd also recommend flamethrowers for, and removing the plasma pistols from your line infantry.
A second Hydra will give you the transport-killing redundancy your list needs to reliably scrap one of his Raiders. Manticores are generally a good idea.
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Post by egon on May 28, 2012 8:28:28 GMT -5
RT is right on the money. IG is all about maximizing the stuff you need and leaving the rest at home. For instance, lots of plasma seems good but you don't really need them against DE (they don't have the Toughness or the save to warrant plasma spam). Also, buying a 30 pts medic for a squad of five (CCS, PCS) is a waste of points, if you want to go Plasma CCS, bring an extra plasma gunner. That way they at least have the chance to do some damage before they overheat.
Since the PCS have crappier BS you shouldn't give them expensive weapons like plasma. Give them flamers or grenade launchers.
Also, as RT said, the stormbolters and extra armour is just waste of points. Dropping those worthless upgrades (including the HKM) allows you to buy more hydras, platoons and chimeras. With IG more is always better. Two barebones russes for example, is better than one super-upgraded one (just as an example) since you won't be able to use half the stuff before it gets blown to bits.
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Post by jjakaalbinoboy on May 30, 2012 5:08:37 GMT -5
So in a 1,250 pts force how many Troops squads should I really have? As if I have switch to vets I get a lot less of them.
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Post by egon on May 30, 2012 5:42:07 GMT -5
How long is a piece of string?
It depends on the enemy, the mission and a bunch of other variables. I usually prefer a platoon and one or more squad of veterans. The platoon is there to give me lots of fairly cheap objective grabbers and lots of firepower (or rather, flashlight power).
The veterans add some hard hitting plasma or melta as needed.
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Post by Pax Urbis Pax Imperi on May 30, 2012 14:37:11 GMT -5
What strikes me about your list is that you tend to "bling" your stuff out, and that's a trap with guard. Really, less is more, as in more stuff we can bring to the party. Examples of bling I see are
a) all Sargents have plasma pistols. Nice to have, but it will get your Sargent killed, and its exspensive. Stick with the laspistol
b) all Chimeras have extra armor, and pintle stubbers. I see where you are going with this, but its not really needed, AND its exspensive.
c) You have an Astropath and a Master of Ordnance. You have no outflanking units, so no need for an Astropath (+1 to reserves). The Moo is very hit or miss, literally. I know its a 30 point Basilliks round, but doubtful you will hit. Sacking both is 60 points and gets you another infantry squad.
d) I like the Armored Sentiels, but maybe not the plasma cannons. Exspensive as hell too. If you keep these, I suggest las cannons for vehicle hunting.
e) Take off the Heavy Bolter sponsons on the Russ, and the extra armor. Again, not needed. Swtich to a Heavy Bolter on the hull, but I like to run mine with a las cannon in case my battle cannon is shot off.
f) Camo netting AND extra armor? Stick your manticore behind terrain if you can, or the russ if you cannot.
g) One hydra is good, two is awesome. Consider it.
By trimming the fat so to speak, you can add more infantry, autocannon teams, or even Hydras or another Russ.
Good luck!
~ Pax
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Post by jjakaalbinoboy on May 31, 2012 0:58:39 GMT -5
OK, updated for 1,250 pts. Hows this now:
HQ: 1 Company Command Squad (Plasma gun x4) (165 pts)
1 Chimera (Heavy Flamer)
Troops: Veteran Squad (165 pts)
1 Veteran Squad (Meltagun x1; Plasma gun x2)
1 Chimera (Heavy Flamer)
Troops: Veteran Squad (165 pts)
1 Veteran Squad (Meltagun x1; Plasma gun x2)
1 Chimera (Heavy Flamer)
Troops: Veteran Squad (165 pts)
1 Veteran Squad (Meltagun x1; Plasma gun x2)
1 Chimera (Heavy Flamer)
Fast Attack: 1 Hellhound (Heavy Flamer) (130 pts)
Heavy Support: 1 Manticore Rocket Launcher (160 pts)
Heavy Support: 1 Leman Russ Battle Tank (150 pts)
Heavy Support: Hydra Flak Tank Battery (150 pts)
2 Hydra Flak Tank
Total Roster Cost: 1,250
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Post by Pax Urbis Pax Imperi on May 31, 2012 1:46:13 GMT -5
I like this list, definitely an improvement. It looks mean and lean! A minor critique, most people don't like to mix special weapons (1 melta, x2 plasma). Better to maximize the gun you choose. But I think you should try this one out and tell us how it went against the DE!
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Post by egon on May 31, 2012 3:14:42 GMT -5
I agree with PUPI, better to have a single dedicated tank hunter squad than three mixed squads. Except for that, looks solid.
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Post by jjakaalbinoboy on May 31, 2012 6:16:17 GMT -5
Sure, I'll swap the meltas so I have 3 in one vet sqd and the other 2 vet sqds with 3 plasma. What about the Leman Russ? I was considering swapping it out for more Vets?
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Post by Rolling Thunder on May 31, 2012 6:51:04 GMT -5
Yup, never mix weapons. The only exception to that is the Heavy Flamer/Melta combo. Have one specialised plasma squad, and one specialised melta squad.
As 1250 lists go, the new one is pretty damn solid.
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Post by kobracommander on May 31, 2012 6:54:35 GMT -5
No don't replace it. More vets is always nice, but you want to avoid getting close to the DE. They will more than likely be able to out maneuver you, so you want as much long range fire power as much as possible to keep them at bay. Hope that helped. Oh and something to consider. You're playing mech guard so I usually construct my lists to attack my opponent. Most people expect guard to sit back and shoot. They get really frustrated when all of the sudden the guard are right in their face. I've managed to completely outmaneuver and outflank even dark eldar. How did I do this? The armylist was something like this CCS 4xplasm chimera vets 3xmelta chimera vets 3x melta chimera 2x vendetta gunships 2x manticore 2x LRMBT (squadroned up) Granted it kind of depends on who goes first...but you have so much mobility and and masses amounts of ordinance raining overhead that you can completely "hem" your opponent up. The DE player didn't even know what hit him. Not to brag (ok maybe a little  ) But 7 out of the 9 DE vehicles were destroyed before he got his first turn. With most of my army in his face, it was just a matter of playing clean up, after that. |
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Post by egon on May 31, 2012 7:29:03 GMT -5
Nah, you want some armour and ordnance.
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Post by Pax Urbis Pax Imperi on May 31, 2012 9:35:04 GMT -5
I agree with PUPI, better to have a single dedicated tank hunter squad than three mixed squads. Except for that, looks solid. Pax is fine, thanks! I think Kobracommander has the right idea with your list. Zoom up your Chimeras and Hellhound, rain down ordnance hard. Remember that your Manticore is vehicle hunting, not people hunting, and your Russ is people hunting, not vehicle hunting. Two Plasma and One melta vet squads are tough. You should be murdering your oppenent now. |
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Be my mirror, my sword and shield, My missionaries in a foreign field 
) But 7 out of the 9 DE vehicles were destroyed before he got his first turn. With most of my army in his face, it was just a matter of playing clean up, after that.