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Post by majorspeirs on Jul 1, 2012 20:50:46 GMT -5
The 6th Edition Guard FAQ states that the Hydra Autocannon now has the "Skyfire" rule. My understanding is that now the Hydra can only fire at full BS at fliers/skimmers/flying MC, and must snap-fire at everything else (hitting on 6s).
Hydras were extremely popular under 5th Edition because they could chew through all light-medium vehicles (and jetbikes) with ease (i.e. transports), by laying down a large volume of accurate firepower. Does this now mean the end of their dominance? Even with their re-roll, hitting on sixes is actually 1/36th worse than an Ork shotting something. The Hydra Autocannon now "averages" 1.2 hits per turn against land vehicles instead of 3.0 (mathhammer I know, but a big difference that brings it much lower than competing units). As flyers become more prevalent under this new edition Hydras will still have a place, but the moment you face a land bound army they are suddenly gibbed.
Are people going to start gravitating towards the other competing units, such as Heavy Weapon Teams, Exterminator Russes, Sentinels, etc? Since ordnance now is full strength under the whole template (and still rolls 2D6 and pick the highest for penetration) are ordnance to become the choice weapon for tackling armour?
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Post by Jackal-0311 on Jul 1, 2012 21:28:30 GMT -5
The 6th Edition Guard FAQ states that the Hydra Autocannon now has the "Skyfire" rule. My understanding is that now the Hydra can only fire at full BS at fliers/skimmers/flying MC, and must snap-fire at everything else (hitting on 6s). Hydras were extremely popular under 5th Edition because they could chew through all light-medium vehicles (and jetbikes) with ease (i.e. transports), by laying down a large volume of accurate firepower. Does this now mean the end of their dominance? Even with their re-roll, hitting on sixes is actually 1/36th worse than an Ork shotting something. The Hydra Autocannon now "averages" 1.2 hits per turn against land vehicles instead of 3.0 (mathhammer I know, but a big difference that brings it much lower than competing units). As flyers become more prevalent under this new edition Hydras will still have a place, but the moment you face a land bound army they are suddenly gibbed. Are people going to start gravitating towards the other competing units, such as Heavy Weapon Teams, Exterminator Russes, Sentinels, etc? Since ordnance now is full strength under the whole template (and still rolls 2D6 and pick the highest for penetration) are ordnance to become the choice weapon for tackling armour? I just got back into the civilized world, so I haven't seen all the new stats..but so far I'm disappointed in what I'm seeing. The Hydra was one of the best bangs for your buck in my opinion. Now it seems to be just an AA unit. The hydra was the heavy in my force, the anvil. Now I don't know what to do as I have a Air Cav setup with no heavy support..now. |
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Post by stovrose on Jul 2, 2012 17:06:15 GMT -5
Note, they can still BS fire at skimmers... not just flyers and Flying MCs
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Hookah, S.C.
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Post by Hookah, S.C. on Jul 2, 2012 17:25:09 GMT -5
That still limits them to a large degree.
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Post by treadiculous on Jul 2, 2012 17:36:00 GMT -5
aww.. c'mon, the hydra is an AA platform.. before (in 5th) it was weird that it could even be used on ground targets (al beit, very effectivly).
It was the fact that it could be used in a way that was beyond it's purpose that made it popular since it was only in apocalypse that flyers were present and it could actually function according to its design.
Don'y get me wrong, there are other examples where this is the case.. the punisher is suppossed to be a horde slayer and unless it is hordes of snotlings, or maybe some xenos race made of paper, it was cr@p.
It didn't do what it was designed to do either.
I think there will be more skimmers, jet bikes (especially eldar jet bikes - they're awesome), and flyers since these benefit from the new rules and tanks don't.
Infantry and Flyers are the way to go now.. with air cav you'll probably not miss the hydra anyway!
The other thing to bear in mind is how fragile the Hydra would be now.. AV12 is not hard to glance, so wouldn't take much to eliminate... and if the rest of your army requires a 6 to hit it, the hydra will draw fire simply becuase it is easier to shoot.
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Hookah, S.C.
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Post by Hookah, S.C. on Jul 2, 2012 18:00:07 GMT -5
I expect Hydras to be mostly thrown out if/when we get out own plane.
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Post by shelldrake on Jul 2, 2012 19:09:47 GMT -5
From a real-world perspective, denying the Hydra the ability to engage light vehicles and infantry makes little sense. There have been quite a few AA systems that have found great secondary use in those roles--think of the German 88 gun in World War 2, which, though a flak gun, turned out to be a great tank killer. Even today, multirole systems are common; as an example, the Canadian Army's primary anti-air platform is ADATS - Air Defence Anti-Tank System.
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Post by shelldrake on Jul 2, 2012 19:11:42 GMT -5
Of course, I'm keenly aware that what makes sense in the real world need not make any sense in the world of 40K or even in the halls of Games Workshop...
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Post by Jackal-0311 on Jul 2, 2012 21:13:11 GMT -5
aww.. c'mon, the hydra is an AA platform.. before (in 5th) it was weird that it could even be used on ground targets (al beit, very effectivly). It was the fact that it could be used in a way that was beyond it's purpose that made it popular since it was only in apocalypse that flyers were present and it could actually function according to its design. Don'y get me wrong, there are other examples where this is the case.. the punisher is suppossed to be a horde slayer and unless it is hordes of snotlings, or maybe some xenos race made of paper, it was cr@p. It didn't do what it was designed to do either. I think there will be more skimmers, jet bikes (especially eldar jet bikes - they're awesome), and flyers since these benefit from the new rules and tanks don't. Infantry and Flyers are the way to go now.. with air cav you'll probably not miss the hydra anyway! The other thing to bear in mind is how fragile the Hydra would be now.. AV12 is not hard to glance, so wouldn't take much to eliminate... and if the rest of your army requires a 6 to hit it, the hydra will draw fire simply becuase it is easier to shoot. Hmmm...you may be right... |
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Post by majorspeirs on Jul 4, 2012 18:01:56 GMT -5
@ treadiculous, you are completely correct. I think it has now been brought more in line with what GW initially intended.
A tank like this should still be able to effectively engage ground targets (in real world, "practical" terms), but this is reflected in the cheap points cost. In reality I think under 5th the Hydra was a little bit too effective at 75 points. For the Hydra to get the Interceptor rule this tank would need to be increased to maybe 100-120 points. It actually reflects well on the Hydra, its point cost and the 6th edition rules that it is still worth considering in competitive lists (particularly as flyers are likely to become more prominent).
I'm a little annoyed because only just built a pair of them myself and didn't even get a chance to use them under the old rules. That said I'm still factoring in one or two in the 1200-1500 point tournament list I'm building, as they are cheap and do fill a niche. The only other real anti-flyer unit we have is the Vendetta (probably one of the best anti-flyer units in the game), however my 2-3 of these are going to be largely tied up dealing with ground targets.
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Post by treadiculous on Jul 4, 2012 18:55:16 GMT -5
Bizarrely, with this new change to thier rules I am finally considering getting a hydra...
...might have something to do with my plan to get 4 ork jetz / bommerz over the next few months...
...and that my Corsairs will be building their fleet up too...
(might just combine the Corsairs with some Freebooterz and have an Ordar / Elk space pirate armada).
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Post by Lord General Armstrong on Jul 5, 2012 2:13:18 GMT -5
Skyfire allows you to hit fliers AND skimmers AND flying MC's at normal ballistic skill.
So you can still shoot it at:
All Necron Vehicles
All Tau Vehicles
All Eldar Vehicles
All Dark Eldar Vehicles
Imperial Guard Vendettas and Valkyries
Marine Storm Ravens and landspeeders
Ork Dakkajets, Burna-bommer's and Blitza-bommer
Chaos/Tyranid's flying MC's: Bloodthristers, Fateweaver, Lord of Change, Winged Daemon Princes, Winged Tyrants, etc.
And the hydra does ignore all "jinx" saves on fliers/fast skimmers due to the faq.
You can take advantage of the new snapfire rules when using your hydra against non-air targets now. Since your hitting on 6's anyway, you might as well move 12" a turn before firing every turn. Furthermore even hitting on 6's the hydra isn't totally terrible at dealing with any ground AV11/10 targets like razorbacks or rhino's due to it being twin-linked 4 rounds and strength 7.
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Post by dangerrod on Jul 5, 2012 6:49:53 GMT -5
Skyfire allows you to hit fliers AND skimmers AND flying MC's at normal ballistic skill. So you can still shoot it at: All Necron Vehicles All Tau Vehicles All Eldar Vehicles All Dark Eldar Vehicles Imperial Guard Vendettas and Valkyries Marine Storm Ravens and landspeeders Ork Dakkajets, Burna-bommer's and Blitza-bommer Chaos/Tyranid's flying MC's: Bloodthristers, Fateweaver, Lord of Change, Winged Daemon Princes, Winged Tyrants, etc. And the hydra does ignore all "jinx" saves on fliers/fast skimmers due to the faq. You can take advantage of the new snapfire rules when using your hydra against non-air targets now. Since your hitting on 6's anyway, you might as well move 12" a turn before firing every turn. Furthermore even hitting on 6's the hydra isn't totally terrible at dealing with any ground AV11/10 targets like razorbacks or rhino's due to it being twin-linked 4 rounds and strength 7. All these reasons are why I don't think the Hydra has any problems in 6th For 75pts what more really do you want??? Personally if your complaining about having to take Snap-shots at anything else, just invest in the Aegis Defence Line with a Quad - Cannon for 100pts The Aegis DL will give your troops a decent cover save and the Quad Cannon will give you H4 S7 AP4 Twin-linked Shots with the Interceptor and Skyfire USR All for 25pts extra! Plus it wont count as any kill points Just my 2 cents... |
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Post by Trickstick on Jul 5, 2012 9:04:32 GMT -5
I used a pair of hydras yesterday. Completely obliterated the enemy scythe that tried to strafe my commander. It seems best to keep them in reserve so that fliers don't just kill them when they come on.
After the scythe was dead, they ran around, doing some hull point damage. I'm now thinking of hydras as a niche weapon system. Very good against fliers, ok against everything else. Sort of like plasma guns against orks, or flamers against death wing.
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Post by Sergeant CJ on Jul 13, 2012 6:08:10 GMT -5
I thought it said in the Rulebook that any model with the Skyfire rule could choose to use it...
Though don't blame me, I don't have it close to hand.
But if this is true, it would just make them even more awesome...
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Post by WestRider on Jul 13, 2012 11:05:25 GMT -5
Nope. Flyers can choose each Turn whether or not to have their Weapons be Skyfire, but if a Weapon is inherently Skyfire, it must fire that way unless it also has Interceptor.
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Post by Sergeant CJ on Jul 13, 2012 22:14:22 GMT -5
Yeah realisd that when I got home and double checked that.
Guess that's what I get for posting from work without the book close to hand!
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Colonel Scipio
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Post by Colonel Scipio on Jul 16, 2012 10:09:22 GMT -5
Shelldrake is bang on in saying a) that historically AA weapons have been massively useful on ground targets - not just famous FlaK examples, but also DShKs etc - which have all ended up evolving into modern autocannons. He's also bang on the money in saying that this is completely academic since real life/common sense has no place in 40K...
It seems odd that what is probably an auto-targeting system makes firing at Flyers feasible - but then when you fire it manually at something 200m away it suddenly becomes massively inaccurate. I think that in an FAQ - or at least the 6Ed Codex - the Hydra will get the Interceptor rule as well, allowing it to do both. Interceptor is specifically stated as being there for hitting Deep Strikers/grav-chuters etc, and the fluff in the current Codex has a mini-story about Hydras doing exactly that.
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Post by WestRider on Jul 16, 2012 20:54:27 GMT -5
I kind of doubt it will get FAQed that way, largely on Game Balance grounds*. Hydras were probably undercosted in 5th, and if you let them strip Hull Points from Ground Vehicles with abandon as well as being the best Anti-Flyer Unit in the Game, they need to be way more than 75 Points each. *The rest of the argument is economic: Hydras were great in 5th, so many people have them already. If something else becomes great instead, GW likely sells more Models  |
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Post by dangerrod on Jul 16, 2012 22:28:50 GMT -5
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Post by egon on Jul 17, 2012 5:39:22 GMT -5
Shelldrake is bang on in saying a) that historically AA weapons have been massively useful on ground targets - not just famous FlaK examples, but also DShKs etc - which have all ended up evolving into modern autocannons. He's also bang on the money in saying that this is completely academic since real life/common sense has no place in 40K... It seems odd that what is probably an auto-targeting system makes firing at Flyers feasible - but then when you fire it manually at something 200m away it suddenly becomes massively inaccurate. I think that in an FAQ - or at least the 6Ed Codex - the Hydra will get the Interceptor rule as well, allowing it to do both. Interceptor is specifically stated as being there for hitting Deep Strikers/grav-chuters etc, and the fluff in the current Codex has a mini-story about Hydras doing exactly that. While I agree with you that it's insanly weird that AA guns can't be used to shoot ground targets (like the Quad .50 was fond of doing when they ran out of Luftwaffe fighters to shoot at, and the Hydra is VERY similar to the Quad) there might actually be some kind of sense to it. This is probably all coincidental on GW's part though, they still have no idea on how real weapons work. Anyways, many AA guns, especially those with flak-based weaponry were actually built a bit inaccurate. It was/is better to saturate a large area with lead/flak then to try to score one perfect hit. This works great if you're shooting at a fighter plane travelling several hundred miles per hour a mile or so in the sky. It works slightly less great if you're trying to hit an IFV that's driving like crazy, dodging behind cover and stuff like that. Especially since ground targets are usually tougher than fliers, so a bad hit isn't as good as it would be on a fragile plane. That said, one would think that we'd solve this problem in 38 thousand years...  |
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Post by omit on Jul 17, 2012 13:15:42 GMT -5
For what it's worth the hull mounted heavy bolter is not skyfire, so in the absence of flyers it can still move and shoot the hull mount while snap-firing the autocannons.
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Post by Trickstick on Jul 17, 2012 18:19:12 GMT -5
Don't forget that you can also target skimmers and flying monsters. Hydras are going to hurt against Tau, Eldar and Necron vehicles, as well as land speeders. All guns can benefit from the targeting system, so the bolter ignores jink saves too. As would a stubber/hk, although they seem too expensive to be worth it.
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Colonel Scipio
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Post by Colonel Scipio on Jul 18, 2012 2:59:27 GMT -5
Anyways, many AA guns, especially those with flak-based weaponry were actually built a bit inaccurate. It was/is better to saturate a large area with lead/flak then to try to score one perfect hit. This works great if you're shooting at a fighter plane travelling several hundred miles per hour a mile or so in the sky. It works slightly less great if you're trying to hit an IFV that's driving like crazy, dodging behind cover and stuff like that. Especially since ground targets are usually tougher than fliers, so a bad hit isn't as good as it would be on a fragile plane. That said, one would think that we'd solve this problem in 38 thousand years... Bang on there - relative/apparent speeds and all that. A lot of people (including myself) get very hooked up on what's 'realistic', and I think we have to accept as Guard players that for 75pts we're getting a good deal on Hydras, and even if it's more realistic for them to shoot at ground targets it would unbalance the game. If I want realism, I play Force on Force. For all the laser/plasma technology in 38,000 years, I find it amazing that shoelaces still exist. |
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Post by egon on Jul 18, 2012 5:09:03 GMT -5
For all the laser/plasma technology in 38,000 years, I find it amazing that shoelaces still exist. Well, Occam's razor and all that. String is actually on one man's best inventions. A lot of things wouldn't be abel to exist without string-based technology. |
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