Platoon reserves, how much?

[sgtsamvimes]

looking for clarity on something

-Reserves states that you can put half of your units (round down) into reserves.
-Pg 121 states that the squads in our platoons are counted as separate units.
-Our FAQ states that entire platoons are deployed in place on a single unit, and rolled for with one roll when in reserves.

Now consider the following army:
-Company Command Squad
-Veteran Squad
-Infantry Platoon consisting of 10 squads (say, 5 infantry, command and 4 heavy)

What can be placed in reserves?
Do you have 3 units, hence 1 can go in reserve (which could be the entire platoon of 10 squads)?
Or do you have 12 units, hence 6 can go in reserve? Does this mean that you can split the platoon, placing up to 6 squads in reserve and rolling for them as one roll?

[vulpine]

3 units. I believe. Just as a squad of 3 russ's is also one unit.

[sgtsamvimes]

But a vehicle squadron is counted as one unit and must maintain coherency, so that makes sense. The squads in a platoon are all separate units i.e. they move separately and don't have to stay together. Where I get confused is, when do they count as separate?

When you deploy/reserve them you can decide whether or not to blob them together, but assumedly this would reduce the number of units you have, hence the number you can put in reserve... you see what I mean?

It seems odd that they would specifically mention guard platoons as the example on pg 121 if it was negated by the FAQ, so I am starting to think its the larger number...

[treadiculous]

I think you have found a good question here, the reserves + platoon puzzle is complex and needs more explanation by GW to bring it out of the grey fog of confusion!

For now I would wait for further clarification and in the mean time find an agreement with your opponent before you write your army lists.

... that said, the GW line is: main rules, then codex, then FAQ's.. so the last thing written is the FAQ. - therefore the entire platoon goes into reserve as one single unit. which is absurd.

[WestRider]

I think the key bit here is actually the "counts as one Unit for Deployment" part of the FAQ. Whether it's Deployed onto the Table or Deployed into Reserves, it counts as one Unit for Deployment purposes.

Note also that a Vehicle Squadron doesn't "count" as a Unit, it simply is a unit. Same way that Marbo can be a Unit of one Infantry Model, or a Unit can be formed of many Infantry Models.

[iggy666]

It is deployed as a single unit, therefore it is treated as a single unit for reserves purposes because that is a special type of deployment. Just as if your platoon was going to inflitrate (pretending it can), they would all infiltrate at the same time.

[sgtsamvimes]

Yes, it unquestionably counts as one unit for deployment, is rolled for as one unit, etc.

What my actual question pertains to is, when determining how many units your army is made up of, do you count the platoon as one unit, or its component units?

page 121 give platoons as an example where they all count separately, and makes it pretty clear that the squads in a platoon all count as separate units, with a special deployment/reserve exception in the FAQ.

it just seems a bit broken that you could deploy 2 characters, and keep 2 platoons in reserve, but the other option forces you to split the platoon up, which doesn't sound right either...

[dragoon6]

If you have an army using an infantry platoon, The number of units you actually have for things like killpoints, reserves, or anything else before the game begins, is technically "undefined". I say this because the moment you declare how many blobs you are making and of what size, is the defining moment of how many units you have, and untill that moment happens, it can change. This causes a great many unique problems when interacted with many "before turn 1" effects, so to get around it, GW simply made the whole dang platoon count as one for all purposes untill that moment arives.

So yes. Untill you actually put that platoon on the table, it's one unit. If you place it into reserve, you would declare how were blobbing, and except for the purposes of rolling reserves, they become more than one unit. But at the moment you decide what to reserve, it's still just one unit.

Sorry if this counts as Threadromancy, but it didn't look as though the question was resolved yet...

Dragoon 6

[commisarblur]

Jul 4, 2012 22:05:42 GMT -5 iggy666 said:

It is deployed as a single unit, therefore it is treated as a single unit for reserves purposes because that is a special type of deployment. Just as if your platoon was going to inflitrate (pretending it can), they would all infiltrate at the same time.

Iggy basically states it out in the open. Since the entire platoon counts as a single troop choice then you'd have to put them all in reserve and not just that single unit.

[Deathkorpsman]

Jul 4, 2012 22:05:42 GMT -5 iggy666 said:

It is deployed as a single unit, therefore it is treated as a single unit for reserves purposes because that is a special type of deployment. Just as if your platoon was going to inflitrate (pretending it can), they would all infiltrate at the same time.

This is not the case. The FAQ does not say that an infantry platoon is deployed as a single unit for all deployment rules. It simply states how you go about rolling to see if it comes out of reserves. I will elaborate:

IG FAQ:

Each Infantry Platoon is deployed in place of a single unit in missions that limit the number of units that can be deployed.

The only time this sentence comes into play is in missions with limited deployment, like when you could only deploy 1 HQ and 2 Troops choices to hold a defensive position while reinforcements arrive - as an example from previous editions. In 6th, limited deployment isn't part of the standard 6 missions, so this part of the rule won't come into play with standard missions. (Note that this FAQ revision is a leftover from 5th edition that GW did not see fit to change, which explains why it is relevant to have in the FAQ at all).

In addition, when making a reserve or outflanking roll, roll once for the whole Infantry Platoon.

This only applies to the roll for reserves or outflanking, not what happens when the unit(s) actually enter from reserves. If you break the squads up into different deployments (putting some in reserve and some not) you just roll once if any portion of that is coming in with one of those deployment options in a given turn. There is nothing in this statement that says the platoon has to use the same deployment type. There is also nothing which says they must arrive or deploy at the same time, just that they must all be rolled for at the same time.

The final sentence from the FAQ is about units in non-dedicated transports and is pretty straightforward. That being the case, it shouldn't concern us at this juncture.


Pg. 121 main rulebook, bottom right paragraph titled "Deploying Multiple Unit Choices":

This rule specifically references a guard platoon, as sgtsamvimes points out in the original post. This rule boils down to the last sentence which states:

Apart from being bought as a single choice, these units operate and count as separate units in all respects.

This is pretty straightforward and an Infantry Platoon's special deployment rule doesn't interfere or contradict with it. Combined Squads alters deployment, because it turns more than one squad into a single unit for the rest of the game. Otherwise, the separate squads in the platoon can set up however they like, using separate deployment types if they wish (if it is available to them).

I re-read the reserves section to make sure, but there is no listing here which specifies an organization chart choice must do anything together. Every reference is to units, when it comes to Reserves (and deployment). So the only thing that is different about deploying an infantry platoon vs. any other kind of unit is that you roll once for any of the platoon's squads that are in reserves. Otherwise every squad, or combined squad, operates as a separate unit all the time.

Something about my post strikes me as unclear, but I can't put my finger on what. I hope it makes sense to everyone, because it was interesting to research it. I did not think this was the right answer, until I'd read the sources thoroughly.

- DKM

[Rook]

Jul 5, 2012 17:17:16 GMT -5 sgtsamvimes said:

What my actual question pertains to is, when determining how many units your army is made up of, do you count the platoon as one unit, or its component units?

You count it as one unit. Look at the FAQ page 96.

Let us not forget people that our Codex as well the accompanying FAQ over ride the normal rules.

[magot]

I think it is One unit before deployment and you put one unit in reserve because you do this before deployment.

the moment you roll succesfull to entre the battle field treat them as individual units in all respects, just like you do when you deploy them on the field before game turn 1
(but follow eventual rules how to enter the battlefield which can come with the type of reserve roll)

However an other thing is that since the 2nd sentence of page 96 is changed by the FAQ, does this mean that the individual squads of a platoon each use their own force organisaton chart ?? Instead of 1 troops slot ??

I get a little bit lost I think

[Deathkorpsman]

Aug 4, 2012 12:20:19 GMT -5 Rook said:

Jul 5, 2012 17:17:16 GMT -5 sgtsamvimes said:

What my actual question pertains to is, when determining how many units your army is made up of, do you count the platoon as one unit, or its component units?

You count it as one unit. Look at the FAQ page 96.

Let us not forget people that our Codex as well the accompanying FAQ over ride the normal rules.

Actually the FAQ is what I was quoting, verbatim, in my above post when I was pointing out that it isn't one unit when counting reserves. It only "counts as one unit" in a specific instance according to the FAQ. This instance is:

- In missions that restrict the number of units that can be deployed.

So only in missions where a limited number of units from your army can be deployed, which none of the corebook missions currently do. This rule is telling us that in a mission which, for example, only allowed 1 HQ and 2 Troops choices to be deployed at the start of the game an IG platoon can be deployed in its entirety as one Troop choice.

The second sentence of the FAQ, as I quoted, only lumps the platoon together for the purposes of rolling. It does NOT say that you have to keep the platoon together. It only says that when rolling for reserves or outflanking, you make one roll for the whole platoon (i.e. any parts of it that are in reserve or outflanking).

They may change this with a more thorough FAQ, but I honestly don't see a reason they would on the surface. I base this on the way they've redone Combat Squads, in part, as well as how the rule is worded. If there is a future FAQ for this, we may see a platoon being split up into its constituent parts for all purposes, including reserves, but at the moment we still make all of its reserve and outflanking rolls at once.

Aug 4, 2012 16:24:13 GMT -5 magot said:

I think it is One unit before deployment and you put one unit in reserve because you do this before deployment.

the moment you roll succesfull to entre the battle field treat them as individual units in all respects, just like you do when you deploy them on the field before game turn 1
(but follow eventual rules how to enter the battlefield which can come with the type of reserve roll)

However an other thing is that since the 2nd sentence of page 96 is changed by the FAQ, does this mean that the individual squads of a platoon each use their own force organisaton chart ?? Instead of 1 troops slot ??

I get a little bit lost I think

The change you mentioned is kinda funny, because it takes the part out about them being one Troop choice. Infantry Platoon is still the unit name header though, and all the individual squads have the asterisk which says they may not be purchased individually, so someone making the case that they are separate force org choices wouldn't have a super argument. I love when GW does stuff like that. FAQ rulings which make the game MORE confusing instead of less are so helpful! ;D

[Rook]

Aug 5, 2012 9:55:29 GMT -5 Deathkorpsman said:

Aug 4, 2012 12:20:19 GMT -5 Rook said:

You count it as one unit. Look at the FAQ page 96.

Let us not forget people that our Codex as well the accompanying FAQ over ride the normal rules.

Actually the FAQ is what I was quoting, verbatim, in my above post when I was pointing out that it isn't one unit when counting reserves. It only "counts as one unit" in a specific instance according to the FAQ. This instance is:

- In missions that restrict the number of units that can be deployed.

So only in missions where a limited number of units from your army can be deployed, which none of the corebook missions currently do. This rule is telling us that in a mission which, for example, only allowed 1 HQ and 2 Troops choices to be deployed at the start of the game an IG platoon can be deployed in its entirety as one Troop choice.

The second sentence of the FAQ, as I quoted, only lumps the platoon together for the purposes of rolling. It does NOT say that you have to keep the platoon together. It only says that when rolling for reserves or outflanking, you make one roll for the whole platoon (i.e. any parts of it that are in reserve or outflanking).

I was originally responding to the original poster Deathkorpsman. I'm glad you were very civil about it, thanks for that because my wording was misleading.

I would say that when you put a platoon into reserves it counts as 1 unit every time there is a limit to the number of units to deploy. Putting them into reserves in itself makes it a limited deployment therefor they will arrive together/get rolled for together/arrive on the same side and at the same time. I can see it no other way.

The FAQ does mention the word 'mission' that limit deployment. You will notice the word 'Reserves' in every mission entry. To me it is obvious that since you can use reserves(and these limit the number deployed) that page 96 FAQ is what is used.

A reserve roll is every time you roll anything in relation to reserves I would think. Thus when they come in/where they come in/who is with who, etc. All are reserve rolls. So in the case of IG, according to our codex, the platoon stays together.

On a side note sgtsamvimes has it slightly wrong. The wording reads; half the units ROUNDED UP.

So in his instance he could pick two of those and place them into reserves. Say...the entire platoon and the vets.

A wacky yet totally legit combo would be a squad of vets, Yarrick, and a full platoon of pcs, 5 inf sq(plus commissars), 5 hws, 2 sws, and 50 conscripts. Where you would only legally have to place Yarrick on the table and the others could be in reserve as you have only 3 'units'.

[Deathkorpsman]

Aug 5, 2012 19:08:52 GMT -5 Rook said:

Aug 5, 2012 9:55:29 GMT -5 Deathkorpsman said:

Actually the FAQ is what I was quoting, verbatim, in my above post when I was pointing out that it isn't one unit when counting reserves. It only "counts as one unit" in a specific instance according to the FAQ. This instance is:

- In missions that restrict the number of units that can be deployed.

So only in missions where a limited number of units from your army can be deployed, which none of the corebook missions currently do. This rule is telling us that in a mission which, for example, only allowed 1 HQ and 2 Troops choices to be deployed at the start of the game an IG platoon can be deployed in its entirety as one Troop choice.

The second sentence of the FAQ, as I quoted, only lumps the platoon together for the purposes of rolling. It does NOT say that you have to keep the platoon together. It only says that when rolling for reserves or outflanking, you make one roll for the whole platoon (i.e. any parts of it that are in reserve or outflanking).

I was originally responding to the original poster Deathkorpsman. I'm glad you were very civil about it, thanks for that because my wording was misleading.

I would say that when you put a platoon into reserves it counts as 1 unit every time there is a limit to the number of units to deploy. Putting them into reserves in itself makes it a limited deployment therefor they will arrive together/get rolled for together/arrive on the same side and at the same time. I can see it no other way.

The FAQ does mention the word 'mission' that limit deployment. You will notice the word 'Reserves' in every mission entry. To me it is obvious that since you can use reserves(and these limit the number deployed) that page 96 FAQ is what is used.

A reserve roll is every time you roll anything in relation to reserves I would think. Thus when they come in/where they come in/who is with who, etc. All are reserve rolls. So in the case of IG, according to our codex, the platoon stays together.

On a side note sgtsamvimes has it slightly wrong. The wording reads; half the units ROUNDED UP.

So in his instance he could pick two of those and place them into reserves. Say...the entire platoon and the vets.

A wacky yet totally legit combo would be a squad of vets, Yarrick, and a full platoon of pcs, 5 inf sq(plus commissars), 5 hws, 2 sws, and 50 conscripts. Where you would only legally have to place Yarrick on the table and the others could be in reserve as you have only 3 'units'.

Thanks for noting that I was trying to be civil, because I was. ;D

I don't agree with the part I highlighted above, since reserves isn't a part of the mission that limits deployment. Reserves is optional for any unit which isn't required to start in reserves, who are of course ignored. Being optional, it isn't a restriction. The only limit regular missions have on deployment is what you can take in a force org / points allowance (which is technically limitless). If any part of a platoon were in reserve though, it would count towards the 50% rounded up rule. A platoon with 3 squads on the table and 2 in reserve would count as 1 unit in reserve and roll one reserve roll to determine when those squads come in.

The entry (second sentence) in our codex about how a platoon is deployed is entirely replaced by the FAQ entry. This FAQ entry doesn't specify that they must all use the same deployment type, only that a single reserve roll is made for the platoon. It doesn't say they all need to be in reserves, or outflanking, so assuming it means that is adding text that isn't there. This would prevent regular infantry squads from being embarked on Valkyries, unless the entire platoon was, and I don't think that is how the rule is supposed to work (plus the wording doesn't read to me that way ).

I love the combo you mention though! The definition of "unit" makes me wonder if fortifications count. Pg. 3 of the BRB make it pretty unclear, as basically everything in your army counts as a "unit".