|
|
Post by Deathkorpsman on Jul 19, 2012 5:29:13 GMT -5
I don't particularly like the new allies rules, but Pandora's Box has been opened so I may as well get with the program. On the plus side, I get to use models from some of the other armies I have sitting around. On the downside, this is way more homework to figure out what combos sync best. ;D
All four SM chapters that aren't 'codex' chapters seem like good choices to complement Guard. Tough, dependanble, scoring units that are good in CC are what Guard really lack in general. Since they are all Battle Brothers, they can interact perfectly with all of our units. Characters can join squads where they are needed most and not all character special rules are codex specific.
Here's what I think about the four chapters I mentioned:
Black Templars - Being Fearless in CC is no longer a liability, so these guys got much better. Their unit choices are pretty solid, if you don't go crazy on upgrades. Needing to take an Emperor's Champion if you have too large a BT force and not being able to bring psykers is a downer, but overall not such a bad thing. Their standard terminator squad options are also pretty cool (2 special weapons in a 5 man squad is bueno).
Blood Angels - Jump Infantry Troop choices are really what set this list apart as an ally choice. Jump Infantry got better overall and BA have some of the best in the game due to Descent of Angels. They also have access to a bunch of the other silly Wardisms like Librarian Dreads which fill a niche IG doesn't normally have covered.
Dark Angels - The opportunity for Troop choice terminators are what make these guys interesting (at least to me). Sad that you can only get 10 at most as allies, but more than that would cost a heap-ton of points anyhow. Unfortunately they don't get any bonus to Deep Striking, so you either need to transport them or let them walk (or risk a mishap).
Space Wolves - Grey Hunters are just awesome. They are very solid all-rounders with lots of squad options that make them even more fantastic. Since I already have some of these models, they are probably what I would use to start with. I just need to figure out what I would take as an HQ and if there are any other choices I should try to squeeze in.
Anyone have other ideas about who would make good complementary allies for IG?
|
|
|
|
Post by Welsh Paul on Jul 19, 2012 8:57:13 GMT -5
I prefer to go for fluffy lists (I play Death Korps of Krieg) so I'd happily take a unit or two of Space Marine infantry, some vanilla Guard units such as Hydras for AA support, and I would definitely like to include some of the Assassins from the Grey Knights codex.
|
|
|
|
Post by Ponen19 on Jul 19, 2012 13:07:31 GMT -5
Played with Tau allies a few days ago against Blood Angels. My battlesuits didn't last long (opponent dropped two dreadnoughts within melta range before they could do anything), but the Firewarriors really helped against the Terminators and Sanquinary Guard. I'll probably switch between Tau and a Marine chapter as both can provide good ranged firepower with their infantry, and the dreadnaughts and battlesuits are pretty good at killing most things (provided they're geared right). Only downside of Tau is that they can't be given orders.
|
|
|
|
Post by WestRider on Jul 19, 2012 19:13:26 GMT -5
Space Wolves stand head and shoulders above the rest as Guard Allies to me for several reasons:
1) They bring one of the best Troops Units in the Game. Grey Hunters are awesome, and they can complement Guardsmen quite nicely.
2) Rune Priests are also awesome. Second-best Psychic Defense in the Game*, and they have access to Divination and Biomancy, which seem so far to be the two best Disciplines to me.
3) If you feel the need for a DeathStar Unit, or even just a lower-level, but strong and flexible Counter-Assault Unit, ThunderWolf Cavalry are available as well. Fast, tough, and hard hitting, with tons of options to fit your needs.
The first two are really the keys, tho. From a lot of Armies, the HQ and Troops Units that you need to bring for an Allied Detachment constitute a "tax" of sorts, but when adding Wolves to Guard, it's pretty much pure win from the start.
*The best is still Eldar, but they're Xenos Scum, and not Bros like Space Wolves are.
|
|
|
|
Post by Julian Sharps on Jul 20, 2012 12:15:54 GMT -5
Another advantage of Space Wolves allies (from a fluff perspective) is the opportunity for a truly frightening cavalry spearhead, composed of Thunderwolves and Rough Riders. Run a couple mech platoons (and maybe a Razor Hunters squad) for scoring, and you have yourself an effective (if unconventional) aggressive force.
|
|
|
|
Post by Comrade on Jul 20, 2012 13:21:43 GMT -5
I personally have issue with the the MC tyranid armies, so I'll be bringing along a detachment of Dark Eldar.
T7 you say, oh well, suck on some poison.
Other then that, I find it interesting that the IG and the Tau are the only armies that can ally with anyone (other then tyranids, no one can ally with them)
|
|
|
|
Post by optimat on Jul 20, 2012 15:58:34 GMT -5
Well if what I've read is to be believed, Tau are supposed to be fairly accepting of other races provided they a) have common needs or b) swear their oaths to the Tau Empire... so I think this makes sense - of the loose variety.
|
|
|
|
Post by WestRider on Jul 20, 2012 23:01:20 GMT -5
And I think that a few of the Guard Ally options are intended to be used more for "counts as" type Armies than, say, taking a bog standard Guard Army and slapping some Chaos Marines down next to them on the table. That's going to look kind of stupid, but I can use my Culties alongside actual Chaos Marines or Daemons now, and that's cool.
Of course, it's probably also because we bring the best Anti-Flyer solutions in the Game, and that's a gap pretty much everyone needs shoring up at this point.
|
|
|
|
Post by Deathkorpsman on Jul 21, 2012 3:59:50 GMT -5
And I think that a few of the Guard Ally options are intended to be used more for "counts as" type Armies than, say, taking a bog standard Guard Army and slapping some Chaos Marines down next to them on the table. That's going to look kind of stupid, but I can use my Culties alongside actual Chaos Marines or Daemons now, and that's cool. Of course, it's probably also because we bring the best Anti-Flyer solutions in the Game, and that's a gap pretty much everyone needs shoring up at this point. Tyranids will just have to use Aegis Defense lines with Quad Guns, because that is totally fluffy. lol There are definitely major aspects of the Allies matrix that I think are totally ridiculous. Black Templars are more comfortable allied to Eldar than to Sisters of Battle? WTH? Codex Space Marines feel more comfortable around Tau than they do Grey Knights? Seriously? Grey Knights are just as likely to ally with NECRONS as with the Imperial Guard? OK, nobody was even trying at this point. It's like that Family Guy episode where the executives are deciding major events with headless chickens on a game board. Come on! Back OT, I agree that Space Wolves seem like the obvious choice from the allies that IG can take as Battle Brothers. All the rest either do what IG do well already (shooting) at greater cost, or they are from an outdated list with some serious balance issues (sorry BT, I hope your 'dex gets replaced soon). On the topic of Space Wolves, the aforementioned Rune Priest + Grey Hunters seems like a no-brainer for the compulsory choices. Would they be better as a drop pod insertion, running around on foot, or mounted in transports with the transport nerf/redesign? Also, which other choices would be worth the points to take? I don't think anyone could argue that Thunderwolf Cav isn't awesome, but being worth the points by themselves is a big question mark. When married to a crazy awesome wolf lord who can LoS! onto whichever model he wants (possibly one with a SS), they seem pretty great. Unfortunately the Rune Priest can't take a Thunderwolf mount, so they'd basically be on their own. Since their upgrades are pretty spendy, on top of being spendy models to begin with, is it worth dropping several hundred points on a pack of them to scare people with? What other options stand out, or should a Rune Priest and two packs of Grey Hunters suffice? |
|
|
|
Post by Laughing Man on Jul 21, 2012 4:45:36 GMT -5
 IDEA! Dkok list with two death rider command squads, and two minimum engineer squads, plus 3 death rider squads, then space wolf allies of canis wolfborn, two squads fenrisian wolves and a unit of thunder wolves. Warhamster Calvary charge! |
|
|
|
Post by WestRider on Jul 21, 2012 12:11:22 GMT -5
Tyranids will just have to use Aegis Defense lines with Quad Guns, because that is totally fluffy. lol Actually, it's looking like DakkaFexen/Tyrants are going to be a lot more effective against Flyers than a lot of people were predicting. Still early days, and dealing with Storm Ravens is going to be a major pain in the butt, but I Nids are hardly limited to a single Quad Gun. Some of these, I sort of get. No one's really comfortable around GKs, but the GKs will, if necessary, work with anyone who's not Chaos Tainted against anyone who is. The BT/Sisters thing is just weird to me, tho. Grey Hunters suffer less from the Transport Nerf than many Marines, since they've always been pretty happy jumping out, Rapid Firing, and taking the Charge with Counterattack. I think they're still pretty viable mounted up, and they're totally solid on foot in the middle of a Guard line. Podding seems sort of mediocre here, likely to leave them out unsupported too early in the Game. The key to making the ThunderWolves work as Allies is that Wolves can get two choices for each HQ Slot. So you can pick up a Rune Priest and a ThunderWolf Lord even in an Allied Detachment. I've got a first draft of a list going that way in the Army List board. Needs quite a bit of tweaking still, but I think the general concept has merit. |
|
|
|
Post by Julian Sharps on Jul 22, 2012 12:35:06 GMT -5
Well, I played my first game with allies (2,000 points Guard w/ Dark Eldar allies vs. Space Marines), and I am delighted to say that Dark Eldar work quite nicely as a spearhead or flanking force, provided that they keep far enough away from your main force to not inflict OEO. By the end of the game, my allied detachment of an Archite (Succubus to anyone who's not old school DE), 9 Wyches and their Raider was reduced to half strength (the Wyches took all the casualties; the Raider was never shot at for some reason), but they had managed to claim a combined total of 19 Tactical Marines from three separate units and two Terminators, making a third again their points back.
As long as you don't expect them to take objectives (simply use them as you would Elites), they seem to mesh quite well with the Imperial Guard playstyle.
|
|
|
|
Post by Welsh Paul on Jul 23, 2012 8:32:33 GMT -5
IDEA! Dkok list with two death rider command squads, and two minimum engineer squads, plus 3 death rider squads, then space wolf allies of canis wolfborn, two squads fenrisian wolves and a unit of thunder wolves. Warhamster Calvary charge! I've never thought about doing that. Not the exact list as I hate Space Wolves, but it would be nice (and expensive) to fill out on DKoK Death Riders for Fast Attack and HQ choices and have a seperate HQ plus infantry/Heavy choices from a vanilla Guard detachment. |
|
wulfric
Lieutenant
For the Emperor!
Posts: 135
|
Post by wulfric on Jul 23, 2012 9:50:24 GMT -5
I'm playing an allies list tonight to represent a Lost and Damned type army. Primaris, PCS, 4 autocannon/ grenade launcher squads, lascannon and mortar squads and a penal legion squad. A couple of Leman Russ. Demon prince with wings, plague marines and raptors from the CSM book. Built to look funky, and try out the psyker rules... hope it's fun.  |
|
|
|
Post by omit on Jul 23, 2012 12:10:22 GMT -5
I've been looking a lot at the Forgeworld armoured battlegroup as allies. It's essentially more of the guard army but with a few handy tank tricks that they can pull, really opens up our heavy support slots.
|
|
|
|
Post by WestRider on Jul 26, 2012 9:51:24 GMT -5
Just saw a couple of things that really pump up the value of Space Wolf Allies (and to a lesser extent the other Marine choices as well): And They Shall Know no Fear and Counterattack are both "If at least one Model in a Unit has..." Abilities.
So stick a Rune Priest in a blob and he inspires them to know no fear AND teaches them how to Counterattack. On top of all the other awesomeness he brings, that made him one of the best options anyhow.
|
|
|
|
Post by Welsh Paul on Jul 26, 2012 10:13:55 GMT -5
I was under the impression that nearly all Space Wolf infantry units, with the exception of Long Fangs, have both ATSKNF and Counter Attack anyway.
|
|
|
|
Post by WestRider on Jul 26, 2012 17:36:19 GMT -5
The point is that their ICs do, too, and because they're Bros with Guard, I can have a Rune Priest Join a Combined Platoon and suddenly all those Guardsmen get ATSKNF and CounterAttack as well.
And he's way more durable than a Commissar, and Ld10 (which helps with Orders, too).
|
|
|
|
Post by Comrade on Jul 26, 2012 18:12:37 GMT -5
I'm leaning DE, and GK actually.
DE-Assault Elements, poison.
GK- Assassins, get rid of combined squads, use independent squads in chims, increase use of conscripts, attach 25 pt Inquisitor to make conscripts stubborn, in other conscript squads use indi commissar, both can be semi useful in CC.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2012 5:16:43 GMT -5
Dark Angels - The opportunity for Troop choice terminators are what make these guys interesting (at least to me). Sad that you can only get 10 at most as allies, but more than that would cost a heap-ton of points anyhow. Unfortunately they don't get any bonus to Deep Striking, so you either need to transport them or let them walk (or risk a mishap).
- Unless you field over 2,000pts in which case you recieve an additional ally FOC.
I'd say Blood Angels, their concept art in the 6th edition rule book is just breathtking
|
|
|
|
Post by Deathkorpsman on Jul 27, 2012 10:03:37 GMT -5
Actually the ability to get two HQ choices with Space Wolves and spread ATSKNF, LD10, an effective Challenge giver/taker, and Counter-Attack to IG blobs, as WestRider pointed out above, sounds like an awesome force multiplier. I'm not sure any other army choices bring that kind of value to the table, as most other cool abilities I can think of from our ally options have been made codex-specific.
For those of you advocating the non-battle brother choices, what sort of individual units seem the most complementary for a guard force? Wych cults? Aspect Warriors? Paladins? There are lots of options out there, but what would really give Guard the best bang for the buck and fill roles that we usually have trouble covering?
Rules Questions: The FAQ says an officer can order any "single friendly non-vehicle unit from Codex: Imperial Guard". If you attach an IC to an IG unit, they become one unit. But do they count as a unit chosen from one codex if they are actually chosen from two codexes? Would this mean you can't order a guard unit if there are IC's from another codex attached? It doesn't seem OP, as most characters we can get as Battle Brothers aren't shooty enough to really benefit much, but it is a bit nebulous.
|
|
|
|
Post by WestRider on Jul 27, 2012 20:09:42 GMT -5
It says on Pg. 39 that ICs count as part of the Unit they've Joined for all Rules Purposes, and I know that in Tyranids, a Tyranid Prime gains the effects of a Tärvigon's buffs if he's Joined to a Termagant Brood that's within Range.
To me, it seems to read that the Unit is treated as usual, and the Character's just along for the ride.
|
|
|
|
Post by WestRider on Jul 28, 2012 20:59:31 GMT -5
Sorry for the double post, but I just ran Guard with Wolves this afternoon, and I've gotta say, a Blob with a Divination Wolf Priest in there is awesome with extra awesomesauce on the side. They gunned down some Death Company, and then took out Astaroth and several Sanguinary Guard in Combat before I got a little overconfident and let my Rune Priest accept a Challenge from Dante.
In my defense, I had Prescience and Forewarning both up, a Force Axe, and full Warp Charge since it was on his Turn, so if I hadn't rolled triple 1s on my To-wound Rolls, I had good odds on killing him.
Didn't really matter, since Dante and a single Sanguinary Guard were all that was left on the Table at that point, and I still had plenty of Firepower left to point at them. Tabled him at the end of Turn 4, effectively playing 10% down, since my Vets never got out of the Vendetta.
|
|
|
|
Post by Lord General Armstrong on Jul 31, 2012 19:52:33 GMT -5
Armoured Battlegroup! Best allies for the Guard! More tanks, Commissar tanks with leadership bubbles!
For 10 points more, you get a Leman Russ with BS 4 and a 6" leadership ten bubble!
|
|
|
|
Post by theyshallnotpass on Sept 8, 2012 16:38:32 GMT -5
Personally I'm not all that keen on the concept of allies simply because it's only ever going to work at the higher points levels. That said the Guard do lend themselves well to various armies and the possibilites are tantalising. However needing large forces to employ still remains too big of a drawback for me.
|
|
IDEA!
