Some problems with the rules!

[Rook]

Let me start by saying that I have not read the rulebook from cover to cover.

I have read the FAQ/Errata

www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2420313a_Imperial_Guard_6th_Ed_V1.pdf

though and I have found some problems with the way the rules don't mesh.

1)Camo cloaks still grant stealth to the entire unit as well as adding an additional cover save to the wearer. I suspect this may be wrong but with the ability to single out leaders I can see a reason why cloaks may work this way.

2)Rough Rider's hunting lances are not mentioned in the rule book. Since the codex overrides the basic rulebook(p.7) we have to assume that the hunting lance has not changed and that the entry in our codex will be used. This begs the question of what 'power weapon' this is treated as. It can't be a 'power lance' and still a 'hunting lance'. The only real problem is what the AP is of the hunting lance.

3)Look at the missile launcher entry in the rulebook (p.57). Notice it reads "and some have the option to upgrade to include Flakk missiles". OK, so how is this option implemented? It's not in MY codex and it certainly isn't in the errata.

4)The Blessing of the Omnissiah rule for Techpriests needs clarification. The way it reads is if you fix the vehicle's weapon it may fire immediately(the same shooting phase as when it was repaired). BUT, if you fire the vehicle first because of forgetting about the Techpriest then you are out of luck.

5)It appears as thought the Leman Russ can now move D6"+6" in the movement phase(cruising) and an additional 6" Flat Out during the shooting phase. This may be no big deal but I looked in the back of the book at p.428 where the chart is and could not see 'tank' listed. Now this game has dozens of tanks and to leave this category out seems odd to me. Are tanks considered 'Heavy'? I could find no rule for or against this.

6)Since Servo-arms have not been changed as per the errata they ignore armor saves. Looks a lot like a power fist, yet doesn't have some of the special rules of power fists. This appears to be an over site.

I'm sure I will find more.

As to these, what do you guys/gals think?

[sgtsamvimes]

1) Camo cloaks grant +1 cover saves, not stealth. Note though that this stacks with stealth.

2) They are unusual power weapons, so AP 3 plus their special rules.

3) No one has the option for Flakk missles, they are just a new type. Expect them in future codices.

4) That's exactly how it works. Fix first, then fire.

5) Tanks are just 'other vehicles'. Lumbering behemoth doesn't really change, you simply don't count the turret when figuring out what can fire at full BS, and yes you can flat out 6" if you dont shoot.

6) Servo-arm is just as it is in the book, which essentially makes it a single Powerfist attack.

Hope that helps.

[Rook]

Jul 19, 2012 13:39:04 GMT -5 sgtsamvimes said:

1) Camo cloaks grant +1 cover saves, not stealth. Note though that this stacks with stealth.

Not to sound condescending, but you need to read the errata more closely. It clearly states to replace the second sentence not the second paragraph as you are suggesting.


As for the flak missiles my friends and I are under assumption that it can be chosen just like the other two types. Otherwise some armies have nothing that is Skyfire.

As for the powerfist; the servo arm doesn't have any special rules that powerfist has. It is Str 8 which is more than double the servitors str and it ignores armor, is not considered a powerfist at all. It RESEMBLES one but the codex overrides the rule book.

[Deathkorpsman]

1) Actually I just re-read the FAQ and it looks like they replaced fluff text by accident. RAW, camo cloaks now provide Stealth and +1 cover. lol I think I'm going to houserule this.

2) I agree that lances are AP3.

3) Answered. Most armies have something that is a flyer and all flyers can choose to Skyfire on any given round. Any army can also get gun emplacements with their fortification allotment. If that all fails, there are usually allies for flyers. Guard are the only list out there with a non-flier that has Skyfire ATM (Hydra). Everyone else is jealous. The rulebook clearly states that it is an optional upgrade for missile launchers and only the two base types come standard. Until codexes or better FAQ's come out that is all we get.

4) Answered.

5) Agree with sgtsamvimes. Lumbering Behemoth is now kinda weird, because the wording actually doesn't let us do what it originally did by the current rules. Since it let's you fire the turret in addition to what you are normally able to fire, it usually doesn't do anything because you can fire your other weapons as Snap Fire most of the time. If you have blast weapons on your sponsons, it would let you fire one of those. Basically the rule is a mess until they FAQ it so I'm running it with house rules.

6) Answered.

[Rook]

I have no rules issue with Lumbering Behemoth. It appears straight forward to me.

[magot]

Jul 19, 2012 14:01:16 GMT -5 Rook said:

I have no rules issue with Lumbering Behemoth. It appears straight forward to me.

I do neither.
A Leman Russ is a Vehicle in all respects with all the rules of vehicles applying.
with 2 additions because the Codex does have precedence over the BRB
- you are allowed to shoot your Ordnance weapon in addition to other weapons if you stay stationary or move at combat speed.
- Cruising speed is limited to 6" + D6

[Deathkorpsman]

If those are the only things you are doing with it, then that is fine because that's what it says. Note that all vehicles can now move, fire, and shoot other weapons now anyway as Snap Fire.

What I've seen people do is assume the rule does the exact same thing it did in 5th, but it doesn't quite do that anymore. In 5th a non-fast vehicle could move and fire 1 weapon, so Lumbering Behemoth allowed you to fire your turret plus 1 weapon. Now you can move and Snap Fire with everything that isn't blast, template, or Ordinance (though you can still fire 1 ordinance). So if you have a Russ with Battlecannon and 3 heavy bolters, you can move and shoot the cannon while Snap Firing the bolters already so there are no additional weapons Lumbering Behemoth would allow you to fire by RAW.

I'm going to request a houserule with the guys I play to allow an additional weapon to be fired at full BS, which I think is what the rule is supposed to do. Whenever they get around to putting out a better FAQ.

[TheHoboHunter]

Jul 19, 2012 19:21:39 GMT -5 Deathkorpsman said:

I'm going to request a houserule with the guys I play to allow an additional weapon to be fired at full BS, which I think is what the rule is supposed to do. Whenever they get around to putting out a better FAQ.

I, too, figured this is what it meant.

To me, it reads "Do whatever you normally can (thus, at whatever BS is appropriate for the selected weapons), and then tack a turret weapon on top of that."

[Deathkorpsman]

Jul 20, 2012 7:13:11 GMT -5 TheHoboHunter said:

To me, it reads "Do whatever you normally can (thus, at whatever BS is appropriate for the selected weapons), and then tack a turret weapon on top of that."

Well I think that is what it is supposed to mean, but it isn't what it actually says currently. Hopefully they fix it soon. It isn't a huge deal really, since vehicles in general shoot more now anyway, but it would still be nice to be able to use all of our special rules as they were intended. I wouldn't be surprised if Leman Russes picked up the Heavy special quality eventually.

[magot]

I, too, figured this is what it meant.

To me, it reads "Do whatever you normally can (thus, at whatever BS is appropriate for the selected weapons), and then tack a turret weapon on top of that

YEP:
Stationary - Shoot with everyting Including your turret weapon (even if it is a Ordnance weapon).
combat speed - 1 single weapon full BS other weapons Snap shot PLUS your Turret weapon in addition.
Cruising speed (6" +D6) - only snap shots

this means that if you have a turret weapon that uses BS instead of a blast or large blast, you need to think carefully what you do.
because I am not 100% sure that "in Additon you an shoot your turret weapon" also means with full BS.
It depends on how you look at this.
one could say: Yes in additon but if you moved and shoot already an other weapon with full BS, you only can shoot your turret weapon which need to use BS like the Exterminator, Vanquisher and Punisher, with snap shot.
And another could say: it is in additon so on top of all the other rules and therefore with full BS.

My opinion is that the last one will have a difficult time at the gaming tables without a proper FAQ.
And therefore Korpsman I think you are right to ask for this.
I was a little too quick in my answer



.

[Deathkorpsman]

Jul 21, 2012 1:45:56 GMT -5 magot said:

I, too, figured this is what it meant.

To me, it reads "Do whatever you normally can (thus, at whatever BS is appropriate for the selected weapons), and then tack a turret weapon on top of that

YEP:
Stationary - Shoot with everyting Including your turret weapon (even if it is a Ordnance weapon).
combat speed - 1 single weapon full BS other weapons Snap shot PLUS your Turret weapon in addition.
Cruising speed (6" +D6) - only snap shots

this means that if you have a turret weapon that uses BS instead of a blast or large blast, you need to think carefully what you do.
because I am not 100% sure that "in Additon you an shoot your turret weapon" also means with full BS.
It depends on how you look at this.
one could say: Yes in additon but if you moved and shoot already an other weapon with full BS, you only can shoot your turret weapon which need to use BS like the Exterminator, Vanquisher and Punisher, with snap shot.
And another could say: it is in additon so on top of all the other rules and therefore with full BS.

My opinion is that the last one will have a difficult time at the gaming tables without a proper FAQ.
And therefore Korpsman I think you are right to ask for this.
I was a little too quick in my answer
.

Thanks for noticing! The only reason I bring up rules problems like this is to find out what the RAW of a rule really is. Without knowing what the rules actually say, coming up with a house rule becomes totally arbitrary. We can ASSUME that GW meant for Lumbering Behemoth to basically work like Power of the Machine Spirit, though only for the turret weapon, but that isn't what the rule says (RAI vs. RAW). It was a rule designed for 5th Edition when non-fast vehicles could only move and fire 1 weapon (and not Ordinance). Now that has all changed.

RAW as I read it:
- Leman Russ can move 6+D6" Cruising. All agreed there.
- Can fire turret in addition to whatever it can normally fire. It doesn't mention anything about using BS, just the total weapons you can fire. So if you have a Battlecannon in the turret and 3 Heavy Bolters back in 5th Edition, you could fire a total of 2 weapons. Now (in 6th edition), even without Lumbering Behemoth, you could move and fire all 4 (Battlecannon at full BS and Bolters as Snap Fire). So unless the rule allows you to fire a secondary weapon at full BS in order to fire the turret weapon at full BS, it doesn't really do anything. You can fire the same number of weapons in any case because of Snap Fire. Template and blast weapons not mounted in the turret make it more confusing.

RAI
- 6+D6" Cruising again.
- Fire turret weapon at full BS when stationary or combat speed. Does not affect how many other weapons you can fire at full BS when stationary or at combat speed.

The RAI listed above is what I'll ask my opponents to allow to be used in games I play for the near future. Hopefully GW gets some feedback quickly, actually listens to it, and puts out some decent FAQ's. And maybe fixes Valk/Ven Grav Chute rules while they're at it.

[sgtsamvimes]

What's wrong with Grav chute rules? They are pretty unambiguous as I see it.

[WestRider]

Jul 21, 2012 20:47:46 GMT -5 sgtsamvimes said:

What's wrong with Grav chute rules? They are pretty unambiguous as I see it.

Go look through the StormTroopers in 6th Thread for the whole Argument. It's a whole mess of assumptions and bits carried over from 5th or not.