harry
Conscript
Posts: 16
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Post by harry on Aug 9, 2012 1:55:31 GMT -5
should i take a manticore or 2 hydras?
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Post by Deathkorpsman on Aug 9, 2012 2:07:10 GMT -5
That is an extremely open-ended question. In a vacuum, there is no great answer though I'd lean toward the Manticore. They are both awesome at entirely different things, so it somewhat depends on what else is in your list. Hydras are much worse against ground targets than they once were, but are amazing against flyers. Manticores can't target flyers at all, but got better against ground targets.
If you have 1 or more Valk/Vens in the list already, you could easily go without the Hydras (since all flyers can choose whether or not to use Skyfire in any given Shooting phase). Likewise, if you don't have Valk/Vens and already field a fair amount of artillery, the Hydras would be a better choice.
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Post by Jackal-0311 on Aug 9, 2012 12:05:44 GMT -5
That is an extremely open-ended question. In a vacuum, there is no great answer though I'd lean toward the Manticore. They are both awesome at entirely different things, so it somewhat depends on what else is in your list. Hydras are much worse against ground targets than they once were, but are amazing against flyers. Manticores can't target flyers at all, but got better against ground targets. If you have 1 or more Valk/Vens in the list already, you could easily go without the Hydras (since all flyers can choose whether or not to use Skyfire in any given Shooting phase). Likewise, if you don't have Valk/Vens and already field a fair amount of artillery, the Hydras would be a better choice. X2!
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Post by hendrik on Aug 9, 2012 18:09:57 GMT -5
I've actually found hydras not to be that impressive against flyers unless you field atleast 2 of them.due to a lack of interceptor you will only be able to attack the flyers in the turn after they arrive. this means that a vendetta (or any other decent AT flyer) has a full turn to destroy your hydra. If they are a squadron this means that if he's lucky a vendetta can destroy your hydra squadron even before they did what they were supposed to do. An aegis defenceline with quadgun on the other hand is basicaly a hydra, but with interceptor and a long section of cover your can hide your gunline behind
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Post by Welsh Paul on Aug 10, 2012 2:31:07 GMT -5
I think you're misinterpreting the rules, Hedrik. I unit without the Interceptor rule can still fire at a target in the turn in which it enters the game from reserves. Interceptor simply allows that unit to fire at its target when it comes in from reserves instead of in its own shooting phase.
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Post by WestRider on Aug 10, 2012 10:00:38 GMT -5
Yeah, but what he's saying is that the Vendetta/Scythe can zoom in and wreck your Hydra before it gets a chance to shoot, because Hydras are pretty fragile and are going to get focused on first.
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Post by hendrik on Aug 13, 2012 17:26:29 GMT -5
exactly, sure I can hope that my opponent is forgetting to focus on my hydras but with them being the only "viable" anti flyer unit in the army that's most doubtfull
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Post by Rook on Aug 25, 2012 18:56:09 GMT -5
According to the rules as written; a manticore can illuminate anything on the board, even around corners and out of line of sight.
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Post by dangerrod on Aug 25, 2012 20:15:35 GMT -5
According to the rules as written; a manticore can illuminate anything on the board, even around corners and out of line of sight. It may be able to illuminate anything on the board, but the night fighting rules mean it can only target enemies up too 36" away The way to get round this is to get something else closer and then illuminate it for the Manticore to fire at Danger Rod
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Post by Rook on Aug 25, 2012 20:30:14 GMT -5
According to the rules as written; a manticore can illuminate anything on the board, even around corners and out of line of sight. It may be able to illuminate anything on the board, but the night fighting rules mean it can only target enemies up too 36" away The way to get round this is to get something else closer and then illuminate it for the Manticore to fire at Danger Rod The question is whether the barrage rules overrides this.
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Post by WestRider on Aug 25, 2012 20:55:34 GMT -5
The Barrage Rule says it can fire at things that it are out of LoS.
The actual Rules for Night Fight, on the other hand, make no reference to LoS at all, they simply say that if the distance between the Units is greater than 36", you may not pick that Unit as a Target.
If they said that you had no LoS to Units more than 36" away, you could target them with Barrages, but as it's written, it never even gets to the point where their Rules make a difference.
That said, Barrages do ignore the rest of the Night Fight Rules, since Cover is determined from the center of the Blast Marker, which is always going to be well within 12" of any Unit hit.
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Post by Rook on Aug 25, 2012 21:02:28 GMT -5
So do you agree or disagree? Sorry, it's kind of hard to tell.
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Post by dangerrod on Aug 25, 2012 21:08:05 GMT -5
Well , reading thru the Nightfighting section again (BRB Pg124)
(Quote)
Picking a Target and Night Fighting
While the Night Fighting rules are in effect, the distance to a target unit becomes very important - the darkness makes it very difficult to acquire distant targets. The shooting unit cannot pick a target more than 36" away - such units are completely hidden in the darkness. Units between 24" and 36" inches awayare treated as having the Shrouded special rule. Units between 12" and up to 24" away are instead treated as having the Stealth special rule. Units less than 12" away can be shot at normally. If a shooting attack scatters, the distance from the firing unit to the original targetis used to determine what effect Night Fighting has. This means that a unit that is over 36" away can still potentially be hit.
Now that to me says that (even) if the barrage weapon has LoS to the taregt, its simply cannot fire at it as its completely hidden in the darkness
Danger Rod
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Post by Rook on Aug 25, 2012 21:14:28 GMT -5
I totally see your point Dangerrod.
The rules of this game like every other ever written go from the general to the specific to the exception. Where the specific overrides the general and the exception overrides both.
The main question to me is whether the barrage is an exception or not.
I would say that any unit that can fire over or around a building(which blocks Line of Site) doesn't care much for the darkness of a target it can't see anyways. It would trump the NF rules. It is essentially already firing at something it can't see. How we come to the can't see shouldn't matter.
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Post by dangerrod on Aug 25, 2012 21:31:18 GMT -5
Yeah, i get where your cominng from, however the rules for night fighting as as above state that the shooting unit cannot pick a target more than 36" away[/i]
The important words here are cannot and pick, it mentions nothing of LoS as the nighting rules override the general rules for picking a target
I would say the normal barrage rule only applys if its not night fighting
Dannger Rod
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Post by WestRider on Aug 25, 2012 21:35:24 GMT -5
Yeah, I'm with DangerRod here: It doesn't say that you don't have LoS, which the Barrage Rules would trump. It simply says that you can't target the Unit.
Fluff-wise, it's because you can't see it, but because there is no reference to LoS in the actual text of the Night Fight Rules, the ability of Barrage Weapons to ignore LoS is irrelevant.
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Post by Rook on Aug 25, 2012 21:51:32 GMT -5
It seems GW has screwed up again writing rules.
Darkness is not a physical barrier and I would agree with guys if it were but it is a barrier that blocks sight. And barrage already doesn't care about that.
If you can hit a target behind a building who cares if it is in darkness or not? You already can't see it.
Oh well. Good debate.
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Post by dangerrod on Aug 25, 2012 21:58:47 GMT -5
Yeah, apparently 40,000 years in the future ALL[/i] barrage and artillery stop shooting at sunset!
Must have some decent council officials enforcing the noise curfew or something! lol
Either that or there worried about blue on blue fire....
Danger Rod
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Post by Rook on Aug 25, 2012 22:01:21 GMT -5
Of course if you guys are right...the Deathstrike is now totally not worth it.
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Post by dangerrod on Aug 25, 2012 22:24:34 GMT -5
Nightfighting only lasts either the first turn or the last few turns. In any case it can't fire in the first turn anyway. So its fairly uneffected by first turn night fighting.....unless your playing Necrons (Imotekh) continual night fighting shenanigans!
Danger Rod
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Post by WestRider on Aug 25, 2012 22:32:02 GMT -5
Assuming you can keep it from getting shot, there's an 8/9 chance that you'll get to fire the Death Strike on Turn 2, 3, or 4, none of which use Night Fight. Barring Necron Shenanigans, of course.
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Post by magot on Aug 26, 2012 1:17:13 GMT -5
It seems GW has screwed up again writing rules. Darkness is not a physical barrier and I would agree with guys if it were but it is a barrier that blocks sight. And barrage already doesn't care about that. If you can hit a target behind a building who cares if it is in darkness or not? You already can't see it. Oh well. Good debate. I have the same problem sometimes: thinking that I am in the real world, but this is a game only, with rules that most of the time has nothing to do with the real world, thank god And on topic, I would go for the Manticore plus an Aegis with the gun emplacement operated by a BS4 guy or even better by Marbo
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Post by verminard on Sept 13, 2012 10:07:46 GMT -5
I have been taking the Manticore on a few occasions and have been less than impressed lately. Perhaps its because my opponents know not to clump up anymore, but the lack of ap on the blast makes me need a 6 to explode a tank, or whittle the HP down, and with a 4 shot weapon that becomes expensive fast. The Hydra I haven't tried subbing in yet, but I was debating the same thing. My local meta has lots of flyers. Necron jets, Tyranids and Deamons are all over the place, so I think the Hydra may do pretty good. But, without knowing your meta at your shop its hard to say.
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Post by turpin on Nov 12, 2012 11:35:33 GMT -5
I've fielded the Manticore, Deathstrike, and Hydra in different incarnations of lists. For me, the Hydra is the clear winner. The DS has only one trick in its bag, and the Manticore falls short for all the reasons already mentioned- cost, limited ammo, low AP vs. MEQ armies.
The Hydra, on the other hand, has proven itself time and time again for me... so much so that I've ordered another from FW. Every army has skimmers and/or flyers. With skyfire AND interceptor; the Hydra is truly a game breaker and for ONLY 75 pts. They are the ultimate deterant.
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Post by WestRider on Nov 12, 2012 13:36:36 GMT -5
Um, the Hydra doesn't have Interceptor. Unless there's a more recent FAQ that I haven't seen. Without that, it's frankly kind of useless.
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