Help Versus Tzeentch Deamons

[verminard]

Hey guys, I have been having a devil of a time with this Tzeentch list that has been coming up at the shop lately. Its pretty much tabled everyone it fights, and my guard have been on the list on a few occasions which is starting to really get under my collar. I have a huge collection and have been playing for years so I tried a few lists all to no avail.

Here is what he brings

Fateweaver

2 units of plague bearers (five man)

2 units of 9 Screamers

2 units of 9 Flamers

2 Flying Deamon Princes of Tzeentch


So, just in case any of you haven't fought this list here is how it goes.

Fateweaver in preferred wave with the flamers and screamers coming in first turn, with the units attempting to be somewhat close to the Swooping fateweaver for the rerolls.

Flamers try to get close to a unit to drop in and breath of change, but it doesn't really matter if they do or not since they can move as jump troops on their next turn.

Screamers will turbo boost out of the DS to surround fateweaver and be in a defensive position onthe first turn, all (hopefully for the deamon about 18" away from your line)

So, this being said they need to weather a turn of fire. But, the screamers have a rerollable 4+ coversave and 5+ invuln with two wounds, making them take incredible ammounts of firepower, and they are still very deadly at only a few models. The flamers are similar, with two wounds and a 5+ save, and we all know that Fateweaver can be a ... well... pain some days.

And then the deamons get a real turn....

With 3 st5 ap2 attacks with armorbane coming off each screamer, I have yet to have anything live after an assault from these. And usually multi assault any tanks I have, or just murder a squad.

Flamers don't do much worse, with a 12" jump and around 25-30 breath of change wounds that ignore cover and armor they do a number to pretty much any squad that happens to be on the table and in 18" of them, egging you to charge them for the overwatch.

Kiranos is hit or miss at this point, taking a few tanks or sniping a character with Boon of mutation, but he is really there to follow the units for the rolls, but by the time I kill him (assuming I do) the game is usually past decided.

Now, the rest of his force is usually filler, the flying DP's go around bolting side and rear armor, and the plague bearers are there just in case he needs to touch an objective.

So, any ideas would be great. I have tried mech lists, infantry lists, and lists that have flyers and outflanking units combined yet every time these guys get the jump on me and utterly destroy my forces without breaking a sweat.

[Empirespy]

This is just my gut feeling on the matter, as I'm not the most tactically minded person on the forum, but I would suggest taking the list you feel most comfortable with, then prioritise your targets, if you run an infantry list, it's the flamers, armour it's the screamers. Shoot at the high priority unit until it has been neutralised or is no longer a large threat, don't try and split evenly, and then at least one of his hard hitters will be gone, and then the other will hit you, near full strength, but this will mean they will be more likely to either decimate a unit in combat, leaving it open for a torrent of fire, or waiting to be assaulted, which you shouldn't, then shoot them.

Hope this is of use,
-Empirespy

[dangerrod]

Maybe look at spamming Auto Cannons or Heavy Bolters and forcing him to roll/re roll his saves. The law of averages is always going to be on your side if you make him roll enough times. Also as Empirespy said, focus fire as mush as possible on one unit till its vapourised and then on to the next.

Danger Rod

[stridermac1]

Agree with Danger Rod here.

Spamming medium-high strength weapons with high rate of fire is the go, I was thinking a blob squad with FRFSRF but then I realised the flamers would cook them from dinner in one turn.

An interesting situation I must say

[Lord General Armstrong]

Couple of questions, firstly how many points? Is Forgeworld allowed? Do you want a list tailored just to beat him or just a decent list to try against him?

[verminard]

Generally we play about 2k, and at this point a tailored list wouldn't be a terrible thing. Of course, the GK player in the store won a game vs him before he had a chance to even deep strike his primary wave =P which made me smile. Forgeworld may come into play, I have a few FW tanks but not a whole lot of the stuff that doesn't show up outside of the codex.

[Lord General Armstrong]

Well, here's a couple of lists for you.

* Means I cannot post individual points costs.

2000 Point Gunline

Headquarters

Company Command Squad 125pts
Lascannon
Chimera (Turret and Hull Heavy Bolter)

Company Command Squad 125pts
Lascannon
Chimera (Turret and Hull Heavy Bolter)

Sub Total: 210pts

Troops

40 Guardsmen 315pts
4 Lascannons
1 Commissar

Platoon Command Squad *0pts

40 Guardsmen 315pts
4 Lascannons
1 Commissar

Platoon Command Squad *0pts

40 Guardsmen 275pts
4 Autocannons
1 Commissar

Platoon Command Squad *0pts

40 Guardsmen 275pts
4 Autocannons
1 Commissar

Platoon Command Squad *0pts

Sub Total: 1300pts

Heavy Support

Leman Russ Main Battle Tank *50pts
(Turret Battle Cannon, Hull Heavy Bolter)

Leman Russ Main Battle Tank *50pts
(Turret Battle Cannon, Hull Heavy Bolter)

Leman Russ Main Battle Tank *50pts
(Turret Battle Cannon, Hull Heavy Bolter)

Sub Total: 450pts

Total: 2000pts

My general all comers gunline list, key point here is redundancy.

- Expect to take heavy losses, use that first turn to your advantage, by getting your troops into a better position. (And moving that many models might also bore him off the battlefield!)

- Always opt to go second. Don't want to waste two turns doing nothing.

- He's going to have 24/25 guys on the table on turn two compared to the 120 that you have. Literally drown him in las, First Rank Fire, Second Rank Fire is your friend.

- Protect the tanks with meat shields.

- Never charge, in fact those 9 man squads (at best) assaulting a 40 man unit. Might make it think twice.

* * * * *

2000 Point We Have Friends too!

Headquarters

Company Command Squad 155pts
Lascannon, Master of Ordinance
Chimera (Turret and Hull Heavy Bolter)

Company Command Squad 155pts
Lascannon, Master of Ordinance
Chimera (Turret and Hull Heavy Bolter)

Commissar Tank 180pts
(Turret Battle Cannon, Hull Heavy Bolter Slick Loader)

Sub Total: 490pts

Troops

40 Guardsmen 200pts

Platoon Command Squad *0pts

40 Guardsmen 200pts

Platoon Command Squad *0pts

Leman Russ Main Battle Tank 170pts
(Turret Battle Cannon, Hull Heavy Bolter, Slick Loader)

Leman Russ Main Battle Tank 170pts
(Turret Battle Cannon, Hull Heavy Bolter, Slick Loader)

Sub Total: 800

Fast Attack

Vendetta *30pts
(3 Twin-linked Lascannons)

Vendetta *30pts
(3 Twin-linked Lascannons)

Sub Total: 260pts

Heavy Support

Leman Russ Main Battle Tank *50pts
(Turret Battle Cannon, Hull Heavy Bolter)

Leman Russ Main Battle Tank *50pts
(Turret Battle Cannon, Hull Heavy Bolter)

Leman Russ Main Battle Tank *50pts
(Turret Battle Cannon, Hull Heavy Bolter)

Sub Total: 450pts

Total: 2000pts

- Leman Russ in HQ and Troops are taken from Forge Worlds Imperial Armour.

- Just, just have fun.

[hektorreborn]

I ve fought a fateweaver list that worked with bloodcrushers and i brought 4 vendettas and put HB sponsons on them. Let the Fateweaver eat 12 twin linked lascannon shots and 24 heavy bolter shots and his army will be completly crippled.

[commisarblur]

I've had the misfortune of going against a demon list recently. Fate weaver particularly a pain but I've heard from a couple of sources there are tricks to handling him.

First let the demon's deploy or make it very difficult for them to deploy. Keep a good solid part of your forces in reserve to pulled in afterwords. This gives you a chance to hit 'em hard to upset their forces.

Target either flamers or screamers since warp fire is the bane of your existence. Then go for Fateweaver. If you got a psker battle squad with five or more to use their powers to lower its leadership so when you do manage to do an unsaved wound and it fails it leadership the beast will disappear back to the void itself.

[vladimir]

It is a great problem that list, and with a recently updated WD codex, it will stay there much time in my opinion.

Killing the Fateweaver should be a priority mission, and the PBS can help a lot, but it is a risky move and the daemon player can kill them easily.

High str weapons could help if the daemos could be insta-dead, but they are not, so high rate of fire weapons is your best bet.