And you thought Mogul Kamir sucked.

[Rook]

Mogul Kamir can get, count em, 8 attacks on a charge(1 of which hits automatically on Init 10).

Here is the break down:

He has 3 Attacks from his profile
+(up to)3 from the Cyber-steed. But a minimum of +2 because he still possess Rage. I don't believe Rage and Cyber-Steed should stack.
+1 for two weapons. Notice the Hunting Lance no longer reads "Models using a hunting lance cannot gain an extra attack for two weapons". Also the Hunting Lance from the newest errata does not have the 'two-handed' spec rule.
+1 for Hammer of Wrath which all cavalry gets.

Besides the HoW attack they are all at Str6 and Init 5.


All for blah, blah points. Basically the same points as Scout Sentinel with an AC.

[RedsandRoyals]

Actually, for the same price as a unit of Stormies with a meltagun, and even then that's a very fragile unit with just five very squishy models. If you bring it up to 10, which is a more realistic number if you're hoping to use them, you've passed the cost of a Valk or a Ven instead, which are generally far more useful, and those ponies are still competing for one of those precious Fast Attack slots which Guard can fill with so many awesome units.

Let's also consider Rough Riders as a selection, since you have to if you're considering taking their SC. They're fragile, and are sort of a one-shot hammer that can be used to great effect to wipe a out a MEQ squad nicely (although, sadly, they can't quite go Termie hunting anymore). They're less versatile and more fragile than Hellhound or Valk variants as well, and after their charge, they're kind of useless unless you tool them up even more.

I'm not saying our friend Genghis DOES suck, I'm just laying out some counterpoints to give a better idea of the full context of taking him and his unit. In general, he's better off now under 6th (especially with the Rage change, huzzah!), but he's an upgrade for a mediocre unit that doesn't really do enough to address the problem. Fun to use, decently effective if you want to run him, but not the best choice out there for a long way. Most IG SCs are similar. Nice to have, provide some good boosts, but they aren't essential to take for a competitive army.

Reds

[Rook]

For a change agree with you in part.

Considering the number of attacks his squad would get with just 4 other guys plus him (28 according to my math) his squad could take out much more in those precious first rounds of combat than a Valk(the same points) could ever do.

I wouldn't consider them less versatile or less fragile than a HH, a HH can be taken out by one shot. We can't effectively debate -particular weapons vs. particular units- but I think you will agree that if fielded correctly he would have 4 ablative wounds almost.

Fleet, Hammer of Wrath, Furious Charge, Rage, Fearless. Not a bad selection of goodies from one guy.

Tactics wise; I'd probably run his squad behind some armor until I got close to the enemy. For cover and what not. I've never had a Valk/Vend that could claim cover for more than part of one round at most.

[RedsandRoyals]

Technically, a Russ can die in one shot too, just like Kamir can to a template. My point was more that the Hellhound has greater range, can be used more than once, is a great fire magnet, and can even go transport hunting thanks to it's inferno cannon. Like I said though, I agree that Kamir got a nice little boost in this edition, as did our ordnance and artillery, and a few other editions. It's always interesting to go through and rethink unit choices after a new rules edition (and always amusing to see the Tourney crowd flail about and argue over how the metagame has shifted).

Also, Valks and Vens can claim cover now thanks to Jinking! Another reason why they got so awesome this edition.

Reds

[Rook]

Sept 20, 2012 21:35:42 GMT -5 RedsandRoyals said:

Technically, a Russ can die in one shot too, just like Kamir can to a template. My point was more that the Hellhound has greater range, can be used more than once, is a great fire magnet, and can even go transport hunting thanks to it's inferno cannon. Like I said though, I agree that Kamir got a nice little boost in this edition, as did our ordnance and artillery, and a few other editions. It's always interesting to go through and rethink unit choices after a new rules edition (and always amusing to see the Tourney crowd flail about and argue over how the metagame has shifted).

Also, Valks and Vens can claim cover now thanks to Jinking! Another reason why they got so awesome this edition.

Reds

Damn, it's getting difficult to disagree with you. Yet Mogul plus entourage could wreck a squadron of HHs in a single turn. Of course that same HH could wipe them off the map as well.

Of course Mogul and buddies could have ICs join them. I like the idea of a Priest joining; even without Eviserator. The Assault distance would be the only real stumbling block on that combo.

Plus as one of cheapest Characters he can single models out in assaults.

The proof is in the numbers. I'm going to run him next game plus a HH and a Valk. Try to keep the points identical.

[RedsandRoyals]

I approve of this impending scientific study! For best effect though, play a few different games against the same opponent.

Reds

[Rook]

Sept 20, 2012 21:56:26 GMT -5 RedsandRoyals said:

I approve of this impending scientific study! For best effect though, play a few different games against the same opponent.

Reds

Yes. The Valk/Vend will be hard to beat I know, but hey, you never know.