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Post by dangerrod on Feb 18, 2013 1:17:16 GMT -5
Other questions about tanks: Extra Armor, is it worth it? If I want a squadron of 3 tanks to be tough infantry troop killers, here is what I was thinking. I already have built a Executioner LR with multi-meltas and Heavy Flamer. (first tank I built before I knew what I was doing) Then two tanks with Vanquisher Auto cannons. I was thinking either HF in front or Lascannon and having MM on the sides. I know the range is lower than the Heavy Bolters but if they run out of low armor targets or find themselves close to some heavy armor I could still engage them and be effective. I really just need to play more so I can do some learning for myself but until I can get that done, your advice shall be my guiding light! Am I totally wrong in thinking this or is this a valid option? If you want to be a heavy troop killer then go with Punisher and the 20 shot cannon with bolter sponsons and Pask for bs4. People diss this thing because it can't tank hunt but they are fools to not consider the possiablity of mowing down terminators with over 20 bs 4 shots. The ratio is that the opponent is gonna roll a a few ones each time for Armor saves. Nope.... we have much better tanks and weaponry available to kill termies, rather than hoping for bad armour saves The Punisher with all that added on is 250pts, waaay to expensive for that. The only place punisher cannons work is on the Vulture Gunship (and thats only because it has them twin-linked and has Strafing Run USR) which is only 155pts We've been thru all this before, check it out commissar.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=Tanks&action=display&thread=16029&page=1Danger Rod
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Post by Julian Sharps on Feb 18, 2013 1:35:11 GMT -5
The problem with using the Punisher in that way, 'Blur, is that the statistics are against it for its point cost. Such a tank runs at around 250 points, so it's an incredible points sink. Let's see how it stacks up against some Terminators:
29 shots, BS 4 = 9.67 hits S 5 vs. T 4 = 6.4 wounds 2+ armor save = 1.07 kills
It'll take one such Punisher approximately 6 turns to take out its own points' worth in Terminators. That is more than enough time for them to walk up to the tank and chainfist it to death, assuming that their controlling player is being an idiot and moving his Terminators to your lines on foot from the beginning. The Punisher is not a viable option in this regard.
Now, for an Executioner with Plasma Cannon sponsons (about the same price):
Executioner Cannon and Plasma Cannons: 10 hits (assuming an average of two Terminators covered by each blast) S 7 vs. T 4 = 6.67 wounds 5+ Invulnerable/Cover save = 4.4 kills Heavy Bolter: 3 shots, BS 3 = 1.5 hits S 5 vs. T 4 = 1 wound 2+ Armor save = 0.16 kills
On average, such an Executioner can put out roughly 4.5 Terminator kills per turn for roughly the same price as your Punisher build. Even with an average of only one model hit per blast, an Executioner can still put out enough wounds on a Terminator Squad to kill it in 2-3 turns on its own.
Now, if you're still dead-set on forcing those Terminators to take buckets of armor saves, here's another option: Infantry Platoon - Platoon Command Squad -- Vox - 4x Infantry Squads --Vox --2x Heavy Bolters
64 lasgun shots (assuming that they were successfully ordered to First Rank Fire, Second Rank Fire at 24"), BS 3 = 32 hits S 3 vs. T 4 = 10.67 wounds 2+ Armor Save = 1.78 kills 6 Heavy Bolter shots, BS 3 = 3 hits S 5 vs. T 4 = 2 wounds 2+ Armor Save = 0.33 kills
As you can see, 250 points' worth of Guardsmen are more effective (almost twice as much) at killing Terminators through sheer force of statistics than your Punisher build. They are also more durable in that it would take quite a lot of firepower to bring them down, and they can also take, hold and contest objectives. They are also just as mobile as the Punisher.
In summary, the Punisher is a glorified paperweight, being ineffectual for its points and being a very expensive tank to boot. However, most people who have used it and/or frequent this forum already know this. It's become something of a pastime here to try to find a role for the Punisher that it's actually good in. Needless to day, it tends to fit best in roles that the Leman Russ Exterminator fills better for cheaper.
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Post by egon on Feb 18, 2013 5:08:38 GMT -5
Julian, you math is off on the BS4 Punisher.
But otherwise, yeah, you're right. The Punisher sucks. Even without adding the extra range of the plasmacutioner it still sucks.
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Post by Julian Sharps on Feb 18, 2013 11:29:03 GMT -5
Well, that's what I get for doing my math in my head...
The actual kill rate for the Punisher is 2.02 Terminators per turn. The Infantry Platoon is still a better choice (kill rate of 2.03 Terminators per turn, not counting whatever the Command Squad adds), as it can score, and it takes up one of your mandatory Troops choices.
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Post by egon on Feb 19, 2013 14:14:37 GMT -5
And the platoon is harder to kill. So kids, what do we learn from this? Masses of infantry and plasma tanks are GOOD things.
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