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Post by cdrwattz on Dec 28, 2012 17:34:53 GMT -5
So last night I finally play a friend of mine in a 750 point game. He is a very good veteran player and is a very much win at all costs kinda guy which I'm cool with. Now on reflection my tactics where slightly poor, my luck bad and my opponents fire power was too much to handle.
Here's what I ran:
Primaris Psyker
Vet Squad, 3x Melta, Chimera (HF/ML).
Vet Squad, Harker, 3x Grenade L, Missile L.
Vet Squad, 3x Plasma, Carapace.
Aegis Defence Line, Quad Gun.
Basilisk (HB).
So a fairly static army which I've created to be a bit of a all comers list.
What he ran:
Ravager.
4x Venom
2x 3 man true born with 3x Blasters each.
2x 5 man Wytches squads
Archon
Pretty sure this is what he took, not sure about wargear etc.
He got first turn and I didn't steal the initiative.
The result, Dark Eldar had a turn 4 victory by wiping me off the board. I killed one venom and put a wound on the archon.
Now my list for the most part has served me well. In most games I've played I've done very well with it. Now I'm trying not to be disheartened so I'm turning this loss into a learning experience and turning to the community for support...
Should I continue playing this list acknowledging that my luck was bad and his was good etc etc
What suggestions could you guys make to the list to better deal with this sort of threat?
Starting from the ground up what would be a hard counter list to this list?
Thanks very much for your time and support.
-cdr.wattz-
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Post by tiberius183 on Dec 28, 2012 20:16:47 GMT -5
Its rough, man. I was in the same boat when I first faced DE. Problem with them is that they're so fast they're already on your side of the board and assaulting you turn 2. I used to run vet spam AC all the time as well, but since 6th, especially since 6th gave DE a huge speed boost with how fast skimmers are now, I've had to change it up and go platoon heavy against them (blobs and HW spam). And, even then, I'm fighting for my life...
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Post by Julian Sharps on Dec 28, 2012 21:30:29 GMT -5
To begin with, you're running an all-veteran list with only one Chimera. You don't have the bodies to absorb all that splinter fire, and you don't have enough armor to negate his splinter weapons entirely. Secondly, you brought a Basilisk against the most mobile faction in the game.
The best counter I can think of would be to completely rework your list. I'd suggest taking the following:
HQ: Company Command Section - 165
- Straken
- Vox
- Standard
Troops: Infantry Platoon
- Platoon Command Section - 65
• Commander w/ Power Fist
• 4x Flamers
- Infantry Squad - 105
• Commissar
• Vox
• Flamer
• Autocannon
- Infantry Squad - 65
• Flamer
• Autocannon
Troops: Veteran Squad - 170
- Harker
- 3x Flamers
- Forward Sentries
- shotguns for everyone
Fast Attack: Hellhound - 130
Fortification: Aegis Defense Line - 50
Total: 750
The strategy behind this build is to make it a hazardous prospect for your opponent to assault you, and to make it difficult to shoot you as well. You deploy your infantry behind the Aegis Defense Line, ideally in a corner, and put your Hellhound covering one of your flanks, ideally in such a way that it can torch your opponent's vehicles without leaving itself exposed too much. Have Harker's boys infiltrate 12" ahead of your lines, preferably into 5+ or 4+ cover, and between your line and the Dark Eldar.
Now, when your opponent makes his move, he must decide whether to engage your veterans or not. Shooting at them will prove difficult, as they'll likely have a 3+ cover save, and splinter cannons are only as good at wounding as lasguns against Guardsmen. Assaulting them will prove troublesome, as all the overwatch fire will seriously hurt his Wyches before they can even get to you, and by ignoring your vets he runs the risk of being flanked.
If he decides to shoot at your veterans, feel free to go to ground; you'll suffer no ill effects, and you'll gain a +1 bonus to your cover save. If he assaults them, remember that each of your flamers puts out d3 automatic hits during overwatch, and that because of your defensive grenades, he loses his bonus attack for charging. If he avoids them, you might get an opening to flank him on your next turn.
You may very well lose Harker and his veterans fairly quickly, especially if your opponent has decided to shoot them, but with any luck, they'll give you another turn or two to hose down his vehicles with the rest of your firebase.
If he goes straight for your lines, this is when things get interesting. Remember that Hellhound? Use it to torch his vehicles (although only if you fail to dismount one of his units with your autocannon blob; Hellhounds are good against light armor, but they're even better against light infantry). If your veterans aren't otherwise occupied, send them in to back up your main lines. Catch his forces in a kill zone that even he'll have a hard time getting out of.
Of course, if the mission you're playing involves objectives, focus your fire on his scoring units, then make sure you can't be tabled.
Best of luck to you on your next game.
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Post by diezel on Dec 28, 2012 22:35:39 GMT -5
Ok This is a Better counter if your facing that list again or DE in general. When playing DE always remember your AV 14 is actually 12 Most of the time(Lances) and you want to nullify as much splinter fire as possible. DE are fast and shooty but Mostly useless against vehicles and vehicles is where Guard is strongest! Here is my Concept: HQ: x4 GL, Pace, Krak Grenades + Chimera = 150 Troops: Vets- x3 GL, AC + Chimera = 150 Vets- x3 GL, AC + Chimera = 150 Vets- x3 GL, AC + Chimera = 150 Fast Attack: x2 Scout Sentinels - Multi-Lasers = 70 x2 Scout Sentinels - AutoCannons = 80 Total= 750 With this you will make all of his splinter weapons Useless until he can open your transports. You have the Range to sit back and shoot to pop his venom's and make him walk/run. Plus all his vehicles are av10 with the exception of av11 ravager. your rolling 3's and 4's for the most part, as is the DE player, except you can shoot vehicles  lol. Oh and Straken for this low pts is a TERRIBLE IDEA( Very high cost )same with harker.. IMO, and you cant blob/Slog against DE as splinter weapons just mow infantry down. ( i play DE and IG  ) |
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Post by Julian Sharps on Dec 29, 2012 18:47:27 GMT -5
Diesel, I also play both Guard and Dark Eldar. I am fully aware of what I am asking Cdr. Watts to do, and I firmly believe that it has a much greater chance of success than your armor spam list, if not because it limits his opponent's ability to do anything effectively without being ground down due to attrition. The Defense Line should provide adequate cover for his gunline, Harker and his vets make for a tough midfield unit that his opponent can't ignore, and Straken is there to give him a fighting chance should his gunline be assaulted.
Yes, it is true that with your build he will have the firepower to bring down his opponent's Venoms, but once those Wyches get into assault range his tanks are screwed, assuming that his darklights haven't been doing their jobs and slagging his armor while his Venoms focus on his infantry. Mech vet spam may work against Space Marines, but they can't take attrition well. Once those Chimeras go up, his troops will be easy pickings, and correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't his opponent packing at least 12 darklights? Conservatively speaking, that's a Chimera a turn lost to anti-armor fire before haywire grenades are factored in. Additionally, he can't hold or contest objectives while bunkering down in his transports; it wouldn't take much for the Dark Eldar player to bottle him up in one corner of the map and make dismounting a risky proposition at best while he goes about snagging objectives at his leisure.
Yes, keeping those vets in Chimeras will make his opponent's splinter weapons useless, but all he needs to do is crack one of those Chimeras (and with 12+ darklights, it will happen) and mow down the survivors, and that's a third of his scoring capacity gone just like that. Three turns of sustained fire, and Cdr. Watts will find himself unable to capture objectives because he only has 30 Ld 8 scoring bodies with nothing other than their sergeants to keep them in line.
I stand by my previous list.
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Post by diezel on Dec 30, 2012 15:36:02 GMT -5
Diesel, I also play both Guard and Dark Eldar. I am fully aware of what I am asking Cdr. Watts to do, and I firmly believe that it has a much greater chance of success than your armor spam list, if not because it limits his opponent's ability to do anything effectively without being ground down due to attrition. The Defense Line should provide adequate cover for his gunline, Harker and his vets make for a tough midfield unit that his opponent can't ignore, and Straken is there to give him a fighting chance should his gunline be assaulted. Yes, it is true that with your build he will have the firepower to bring down his opponent's Venoms, but once those Wyches get into assault range his tanks are screwed, assuming that his darklights haven't been doing their jobs and slagging his armor while his Venoms focus on his infantry. Mech vet spam may work against Space Marines, but they can't take attrition well. Once those Chimeras go up, his troops will be easy pickings, and correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't his opponent packing at least 12 darklights? Conservatively speaking, that's a Chimera a turn lost to anti-armor fire before haywire grenades are factored in. Additionally, he can't hold or contest objectives while bunkering down in his transports; it wouldn't take much for the Dark Eldar player to bottle him up in one corner of the map and make dismounting a risky proposition at best while he goes about snagging objectives at his leisure. Yes, keeping those vets in Chimeras will make his opponent's splinter weapons useless, but all he needs to do is crack one of those Chimeras (and with 12+ darklights, it will happen) and mow down the survivors, and that's a third of his scoring capacity gone just like that. Three turns of sustained fire, and Cdr. Watts will find himself unable to capture objectives because he only has 30 Ld 8 scoring bodies with nothing other than their sergeants to keep them in line. I stand by my previous list. Meh, Im not going to argue why i believe mine is better so Test them both a few times and find out. I stand by mine aswell. |
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Post by velauzehraptor on Dec 31, 2012 3:18:32 GMT -5
A guy at our store spammed Venoms. Stand in cover, then do the Incoming order! you'll get a 2+/3+ cover save if done correctly, then just order them Get back in the fight! and then get on with it.
The tactic me and Prilla used to do was simply keep doing that until he got bored, which allowed us to just tarpit the small squads inside with Guardsmen.
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Post by cdrwattz on Jan 1, 2013 4:45:09 GMT -5
Hey everyone, thanks for all the feed back. I've got now some awesome options to consider for my list. The problem is, I'm trying to crate the perfect all comers list and that is makes me good at other all comer lists but weaker against spammy lists i.e venom bs. So thanks again.
Julian, I like you idea. Unfortunately i don't have that amount of guardsmen although I do have a hellhound sitting there waiting for assembly. The problem I found was even behind the 4+ cover of the defence line plus the camo cloaks, just couldn't help me. Not with four venoms. What I didn't do and I'll defiantly consider if I'm in the same position again is going to ground. Less effective if I don't have orders from a command squad but at least they'd still be on the board. Nice food for thought. Thanks.
Diezel, I like your list as well. It's a nice strong counter although it may struggle against other list with power armour. What I didn't realise at the time was his only long range anti tank weaponry was the dark lances from the ravager. If I could take care of that (with a couple of your AC's) then he'd have to get close to use the blasters. I can't remember the exact range but at least he'd be closer. I'll see what I can drop for some AC goodness.
I'll revise the list and repost it soon. Thanks again everyone.
-cdr.wattz-
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Post by verminard on Jan 1, 2013 12:30:27 GMT -5
Autocannons in Chimeras are a beautiful thing. Plus, remember he NEEDS those 12 Darklances to do any damage to vehicles, focus fire the Trueborn down first, the crash tends to do them in quite well, with only 4-5 in the vehicle and all taking a strength 4 hit they die pretty fast when that open top tank explodes. As for the little witch squads, put some flamers in your infantry squads. 5 witches will be terrified of an overwatch like that.
With 9 Blasters, on a good turn he can destroy 2 tanks, and that is if he is very lucky on the charts and you are not in cover. Which you should be. I know this is "mathammer" a bit but 9 shots= 6 hits = 1 glance and 2 pens. If cover takes 1/3 away (crap cover not ruins mind you) he will either have on average 2 pens or a glance and a pen. Not a huge chance of dropping a Chimera. Then, you kill his close blaster squads venoms, and overwatch the witches.
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lol.
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