Rules! Night Fighting

[cdrwattz]

Ok so I played in a tournament recently and this came up. Now I've had a look through the rule book and unfortunately I think my opponent was correct which I think is ridiculous.

Here's what happened;
1750 points, IG vs DE.
I got first turn , hammer and anvil , relic .

... NIGHT FIGHT

I couldn't see the majority of his forces which where over 36" away. Meaning I could not see them to target them. Fair enough. So I used one of my chimera's search lights to light up a group of true born on a quad gun which was within my range. I then fired my squadron of basilisks onto the true born with the hope of scattering back into the raiders etc which where over the 36". I did scatter and clipped a few of them a couple of times. But then my opponent informed me that wounds (or in this case glances and penetrating hits) could not be allocated to targets that can't be seen.

Now I totally understand this when it comes to units that only can be partially seen. You can only kill the ones you can see... unless your bullets can turn corners. And I totally understand what gw mean when a unit is over 36" away in regards to night fighting; you can see them so you can't target them.

My problem (and this makes sense in game terms) is that I fired three ordnance barrage weapons which scattered over the 36". The shells scatter, still land and still explode. Scattering is one of the draw backs to ordnance and ordnance barrage weapons, but it's something you factor into the weapon when you 'buy' it.

I targeted a unit I could see, I scattered... I think I should still damage units regardless of weather they are over the 36" line. The dark night air isn't going to protect you from a stray shell.

I spoke to the TO he disagreed, so I played the game as normal and got smashed. I spoke to two different gw employees, one said "look I know it sucks but it's rules as WRITTEN not as INTERPRETED", the other said no I was right. Now I'm just confused. Have you come up against this? How do you deal with it? Has this been FAQed?

Thanks for your help.

-Cdr-Wattz-

[christopher300]

I don't have book at hand but I am sure that the rules say that a unit can't be targeted unless seen. It doesn't say wounds can't be allocated. So to me if it scatters its fair game.

[Adkenpachi]

Do what we do in magic, read it literally... Does it say a unit cant be WOUNDED or TARGETED? Two very different things.

In alot of computer games ive used scatter tactics when things are out of range... Always useful to kill a general in rome/medieval TW with cannons

[WestRider]

This is actually a really complicated situation. I'm going to have to wait until I get back home this evening and can look it up, but I'm pretty sure that, because what you were firing was Barrage Weapons, which CAN Allocate Wounds/Glances/Pens to Models out of LoS, those Wounds and Damage Results can still be applied beyond the Night Fight threshold.

Also potentially of note, and this is one of the bits where I need to look up the exact wording, but I believe that Night Fight just says that Units beyond 36" can't be Targeted, not that you don't have LoS. Barrage would still work regardless, but it would make a difference for scattering Blasts.

[Adkenpachi]

It sounds like a very straightforward common question so if its not FAQd somethings wrong with someone

[Bentath]

I personally don't see any question as to what the rules are. BRB pg 33 under the heading Blast & Large Blast. The fourth paragraph under this heading clearly state that a blast marker can scatter out of range and line of sight and can hit and wound models outside of normal range and LOS restrictions.

[WestRider]

OK, got my books now. And it's even simpler than I thought. The last two sentences in the Night Fighting section on Pg. 124 says "If a shooting attack scatters, the distance from the firing Unit to the Original Target is used to determine what effect Night Fighting has. This means that a Unit that is over 36" away can still potentially be hit."

Emphasis mine, but it's clear even without it.

Bentath: Unfortunately, there's one more step that they forgot to include an exemption for. Allocating Wounds is a separate step from generating those Wounds in the first place, and Blasts aren't given an exemption from the restrictions on Allocation, so Models that are out of Range/LoS can be Hit or Wounded by Scattering Blasts, but those Wounds can't actually be Allocated to them. As written, Blasts can ignore the restrictions on Pgs. 12-14, but not those at the top of Pg. 16.

It probably isn't supposed to work like that, but that's how the Rules are actually written

[cdrwattz]

If a shooting attack scatters, the distance from the firing Unit to the Original Target is used to determine what effect Night Fighting has. - That part seems very confusing.

This means that a Unit that is over 36" away can still potentially be hit." - Seem straight forward.

But thanks anyway. I so knew I was robbed. The guy I was up against hustled me. He was a veteran and was getting impatient with how long I was taking. It was my first tournament! What a bastard... he ended up coming third.

[cdrwattz]

Hang on wait... No.

If a shooting attack scatters, the distance from the firing Unit to the Original Target is used to determine what effect Night Fighting has. - It's not confusing, it's referring to...

Blast weapons that aren't also barrage.

[WestRider]

Yep. A Battlecannon shot fired at a Unit 35" away can Scatter back and hit a Unit 36"+ away, and will then treat that Unit as being 24-36" away for Night Fight purposes. So it would get Shrouding.