ig allies growing to an army

[jimble]

hello all

I have a 'marines army which i have been working on for a little while now. As much as i like them, i think it is time to add some diversity. IG and SM are natural allies (i like to maintain some fluff with alliances etc)

Therefore I have decided to put together an IG list which will start as 500 point allies and grow to a 1500 point army. I will try to make this clear, but please bear with me (and if the format is confusing tell me so I can sort it out).

The idea is to have a force that is competitive at each stage. The list gives what is added at each stage. All constructive criticism on the unit choices, synergy or whatever is welcome. Thank you.

500 Pts - Allies
HQ - 110
Company command squad:
-Plasma gun (3)
-Regimental standard

Troops – 130
Infantry platoon alpha:
Platoon HQ
2 x Infantry squad

Fast Attack - 260
Vendetta squad
2 x vendetta

Ok, so this first 500 is designed as a meat shield for my marines. It has re-rollable leadership tests and some awesome IG air-support.

1000 Pts – An Army
HQ – 90
Lord Castellan Creed (joins the company command squad)

Troops – 410
2 x Veteran Squad
3 X Melta-gun (each squad)
Demolitions (each squads)

Infantry platoon alpha: (add)
2X heavy weapon squad
3 X Autocannons (each squad)

At 1000 points the vets are mounted in the vendettas to take things out or grab objectives, whatever. And creed is introduced to give lots of orders.

1500 Pts – the limit (for now)
Troops – 155
Infantry platoon alpha (add)
1 x infantry squad
1 x heavy weapon squad
Lascannons (3)

Heavy support 340
2 X Leman russ battletank
HB sponsons

Really all I wanted to do at this stage is get in some more infantry and include a couple of tanks (love the models). However I was considering dropping the ‘russ for artillery and marbo. So what do people think?

[jimble]

sorry, i realised i didnt post the final army list, so here goes:

HQ - 200
1 x company command squad
3 x plasma gun
regimental standard
creed

Troops - 695
1 x Infantry platoon:
1 x platoon HQ
3 x infantry squad
3 x heavy weapon squad
6 x autocannon
3 x lascannon

2 x veteran squad
3 x meltagun (per squad)
demolitions (both squads)

Fast Attack - 260
2 x vendetta

Heavy Support - 340
2 x leman russ battletank
2 x heavy bolter sponsons

total 1495

[WestRider]

The Allied contingent will be significantly better if you drop just a few more Points into it. Give the PCS 4 Flamers and put them in a Vendetta, slap a couple of Autocannon into the Infantry Squads, that sort of thing.

On the main list, don't bother with Creed until 2K, and even then, he's expensive enough that his value is a bit doubtful. You've got a pretty good list for him at 2K, but at lower Points levels, he's just too expensive for what he brings.

I'd probably try to swap one of the Vet Squads over to Plasma as well. That kind of concentration of Melta is no longer as necessary, and being able to dump that much Plasma fire into a Riptide or DreadKnight is really handy some times.

Again, the Platoon Command Squad should have something. Load up with Flamers if they've got a delivery system, or at least give them a Mortar, so they can camp an Objective out of LoS and make a nuisance of themselves.

It's not entirely clear, but it looks like you've got no upgrades on your Infantry Squads, just Heavy Weapons Squads. It's definitely worth shelling out for some upgrades to a blob like that, even if it's just Flamers/Grenade Launchers and Autocannon. A Commissar is really nice, too, pretty much mandatory once you hit 30 dudes. Ld9 and Stubborn helps deal with a lot of things that can mess up a Blob quickly.

[jimble]

hi westrider

thank you for the feedback. taking it into account i've come up with the following:

1500 point army

HQ - 130
1 x company command squad
3 x plasma gun
regimental standard
carapace armour

Troops - 765
1 x Infantry platoon:
1 x platoon HQ
mortar
3 x infantry squad
3 x autocannon (1 per squad)
3 x grenade launcher (1 per squad)
commisar
3 x heavy weapon squad
6 x autocannon (2 full squads)
3 x lascannon (1 full squad)

1 x veteran squad
3 x meltagun

1 x veteran squad
3 x plasmagun
carapace armour


Fast Attack - 260
2 x vendetta

Heavy Support - 340
2 x leman russ battletank
2 x heavy bolter sponsons (both tanks)

pretty much all as advised.

that means the allies force will look something like this:

Allies - 590
HQ - 130
1 x company command squad
3 x plasma gun
regimental standard
carapace armour

Troops - 200
1 x Infantry platoon:
1 x platoon HQ
mortar
2 x infantry squad
2 x autocannon (1 per squad)
2 x grenade launcher (1 per squad)
commisar

Fast attack - 260
2 x vendetta

again, mostly as instructed. i decided not to put flamers on the pcs, although i like the idea i didnt want models which would not appear in the final list (starting guard seems like enough of a painting challenge already!) but i like the idea of a hidden objective camper with a mortar.

what do you think?

[WestRider]

Looks pretty good now. If you find yourself needing to trim Points, Carapace is probably the first thing I'd drop. Not a bad choice if you've got the points for it, just not mission-critical.

[jimble]

thankyou very much, i went out today and picked up the first vendetta. hopefully i'll get the battleforce box next week. it should supply most of the troops i need as well as some lascannons for the vendetta. i don't fancy forking out for the forgeworld conversion set.

i took the carapace to try to offer some protection for the plasma guys from gets-hot (as well as enemy fire) but it is good to know it is optional since that lets me mess around with the list a bit (i had an idea for a guardsman with a demo charge conversion)

thanks again

[crazyachmed]

You may wanna read up on the rules for the Russ's. Seems to me that having a LRBT w/ Sponsons these days is a waste. May want to magnetize them to switch between Executioners w/ sponsons and just regular LRBT's with no sponsons.

Or its just an excuse to up your tanks. Have 2 of each.

[WestRider]

I still like the Heavy Bolter Sponsons. They've got enough shots that they're non-negligible firepower even when firing Snap Shots, but more importantly, they cut the chance of losing the Battle Cannon to a Weapon Destroyed result in half. I find that insurance is totally worth 20 Points.

[hendrik]

you sir are walking down a very dangerous path! i too started out with a small allied imperial guard detachement when sixth edition came out. by now it's a 6000 pts force!!

what does the space marine list look like that will work together with them? it's quite essential to list both to see where the weaknesses lie

[jimble]

Heya, thanks for the input. and i know what you mean about dangerous. its taken all my self discipline not to but an absolute stack of the ig minis!

here is the space marine list it will be playing next to (roughly)

codex marines: 1490

hq: 200
captain sicarius 200

Troops: 640
2 x tac squad(10) - missile launcher, flamer, meltabombs
1 x tac squad(10) - plasma cannon, plasma gun, meltabomb
1 x scouts (5) - missile launcher, sniper rifles, camo cloaks

elites: 185
sternguard (5) 3 x plasma, 2 x melta, drop pod

Heavy: 120
predator, las sponsons

fast attack: 245
2 x attack-bike with multo melta
stormtallon with typhoon

fort: 100
aegis, quad gun

thats a rough idea of the SM force. although there are a few possible alterations. thanks again fr your help.

[hendrik]

you need more armour in my opinion. on turn one that predator will be the only armour (not counting the droppod)on the board. making it easy for your opponent to decide what unit to spend all his AT weapons on. key to making armour work is target saturation. make your opponent have to deal with so many armoured threads he has to make a choice what to spend his precious AT shots on.
So far this marine list seems like a gunline army with a few outflanking elements,correct?
what is the reason you want the imperial guard to be in the army? because you want flyers?
What is the direction you want this force to play in? for the moment i don't see a lot of synergy between the allied guard detachment and the space marine list.

[jimble]

correct with the SM list, it is really a gunline with some deepstrike and, if needed, infiltrate potential. i know what you mean about the predator. it does seem to go pop alot. i guess this will only happen more as the points lvls rise. i may consider dropping it for more foot soldiers.

as far as the guard contingent goes, do you think an airborn-cavalry setup would better complement the marines list? I could make the first 500(ish) include a couple of vendetta's with the two veteran squads. they would add more deep strike ability. then i could keep the company command squad as cheap as possible. perhaps put in an astropath and have them man the quad gun.

then i could include the blob when i scale the army up to 1k points.

[hendrik]

well in all honesty i would make changes to the space marine list instead of the guardsmen. guardsmen can do a gunline better then marines anyway. the up your face-game is better outsourced to the marines.heck, even a standard tactical squad can rival the damage output of a veteran squad due to it lasting longer.
my main suggestion would be to drop the predator and mount those marines in some droppods. the free missile launcher can then be swapped for a multi melta to provide a 24" no come zone in the turn after they drop down. use a cheap combiweapon to increase their initial damage output.
the list will play very differently, but it will make better use of the marines their abilities in my opinion. also, reroll on seize the initiative is really nice for droppod forces!
you can drop the scouts too in favor for some cheaper home sitting troops in the shape of that platoon.
that's how i would play it, droppodding/deepstriking more of my marines, and have the guardsmen hold the hometown objectives.

edit: note that in this scenario you won't really need vendettas since, due to the droppod assault, most armour will already be taken care off by turn 2-3

[jimble]

haha, now you say it it makes so much sense. i'd been imagining a space marine gunline with IG deep-strike. the other way around makes so much more sense. thank you! despite the fact it has completely blown the lists i have written out of the water it IS nice to know new things

as a side note, i assume vendetta's full of spec weapon squads or vets are still pretty solid for an IG list?

and i can easily field a beast of an ig allies blob for 500-750. i guess the next thing i need is marbo and a manticore...

back to the drawing board (and maybe purchasing a few pods...)

thanks again

[hendrik]

i wasn't saying a deepstrike guard element wouldn't work, but,well, yeah, marines outclass us when it comes to going in hot, and surviving the following turn.
vendettas are a solid unit, and by filling them up with a cheap special weapon squad you can easely contest/clear/grab some objectives. however (in the allied list) your space marines should provide you with the needed anti tank in the shape of melta etc dropping in hot. i think you'll want the guards not to exceed the 750 cap, since you'll need to have a droppod force that is large enough too. only two units coming in on turn one isn't going to cut it

[jimble]

balls, just deleted my post. basically all it said was: i want the vendetta's as air superiority units. especially vs necrons and csm.

[hendrik]

well you'll need to find a mix that works. my main concern is that it'll steal point away from your marines which will still be the real killers in this list. but then again, i'm not that impressed by my vendettas so far although they do seem to spook out any opponent

[jimble]

i think that is part of the appeal for me. i've read alot of 'vendettas are op' posts and i've started to believe the hype. i also see them as able to damage other problems. things like mobile mech units or teq. also, part of the draw is i like the model. i have 1 so far and i am working on a black scheme with a shark-face like the a10 thunderbolt.

also, since this is the beginner area, i have a couple of questions about general IG things.

first is the leman russ. the IG faq says it is a heavy vehicle. therefore it can only move at combat speed but can fire all weapons 'as if stationary'. therefore if i fit sponsons can the tank fire all weapons at full BS after moving?

second, what is the consensus on lascannon vs missile launcher for hvy weapon squads? personally i'm leaning towards the missile launcher. +1str and +1ap is not worthless. but i feel krak missiles still pack a punch. while the availability of frag makes the unit more versatile.

all my blob-squads are running autocannons so the heavies wont be using them.

thanks again

[WestRider]

I have horrible luck with my Vendetta, but theory (and most other people's experience) says that they're quite good. But they still can't do everything, and putting too much of your Army into them will hurt you. I wouldn't take more than a pair in an Allied detachment at 1500 Points.

Heavy Vehicles can fire as tho Stationary. Unfortunately, even when Stationary, firing Ordnance Weapons still makes everything else fire Snap Shots. That said, I do still take Heavy Bolter Sponsons on my Russes, and not just because I don't want to rip them off and try to patch up the sides. They get enough shots that even needing 6s, it's non-negligible firepower, and they cut in half your chance of losing the Turret to a Weapon Destroyed result, while leaving the Vehicle rather more dangerous if you do.

I'm not a big fan of HWSs in general, but if you are going to take them, I'd say keep them cheaper and go with the Missiles. Since it's relatively hard to issue them Orders, they're a lot less reliable than Heavy Weapons in Blobs, and they're far more vulnerable, too. Increasing their cost and threat profile is just going to make your Opponent even more likely to drop them quickly.

[jimble]

Aaah, i hadn't read the section on ordinance weapons and vehicles (they do like to spread the info around the rule-book don't they...)

As for vendettas, a pair is exactly what i had in mind! both with a squad inside for fun

The general dislike i have been experiencing for hvy weapon squads has given me pause for thought. so here is what i was thinking before:
i have a 2 squad blob, each squad a grenade launcher and an auto-cannon (along with one commissar and vox between them).
I was going to add another squad with a grenade launcher to the blob and also add a hvy weapon squad (with missile launchers) to use up the bits from the battleforce.
however i'm now considering adding 2 infantry squads instead (of the missile heavies and the gl infantry squad). each squad would have a grenade launcher and a missile launcher. this should be around the same points cost.

what do you think? could this be superior? i am worried about mixing hvy weapons in the same blob. on the other hand, if i were to field two 20 man blobs, i assume i would want at least 1 commissar and vox per blob. also, is 20 men a bit small (this is a gunline)?

thanks for all the feedback. i know i could answer alot of these questions through playtesting, but i dont want to buy, assemble and paint units i cant use...guard needs enough minis as it is!

[WestRider]

I like 30 in my shooty Blobs, but 20 can work if you mostly just want a Screening/Objective camping Unit.

If you're going to mix weapons within a Blob, Missile Launcher/Autocannon is probably the most feasible combo. I used to run them both together in CSM Havoc Squads before I came up with a way to easily convert extra Autocannon for those. It wasn't great, but they're both happy hitting light-medium Armour or Infantry, so it's not terrible.

[jimble]

good to hear they 'can' work combined. although i will to separate them as soon as the numbers allow it.

thanks again.

[evermere]

I Have always seemed to have ridiculous luck with my vendetta, I have had it destroy land raiders, bastions, and a fortress of redemption a couple of times, although the other 8 lascannons and manticore don,t hurt it's chances.