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Post by Reaper88 on Nov 23, 2013 17:33:27 GMT -5
Hey Everyone
I'm not sure if this is the right place for this or not, but I'm planning on building a Lost and the Damned army. Now I plan on it being more of a renegade instead of chaos themed army. This means including some renegade astartes but of course my main focus and force will be guard. My question is how would you go about building a project like this. I'm already in the middle of converting a Valk into a helicopter and getting a huge range of models from GW and other manfacturer's to add some variety to my army, but am kinda of lost on how to bring it all together.
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Post by Narric on Nov 23, 2013 18:42:55 GMT -5
First thing to consider is which codex is the leader. By that I mean will the Space Marines or Imperial Guard be the Primary detachment. this'll change how you feild the army, with obvious emphasis on the restrictions of what you can take.
Using SM will give you fewer but more resilient bodies and heavier gear choices, whilst Guard means you can take many bodies and have access to devastating Tanks (Yes, i consider Guard tanks to be better than SM, deal with it).
I'd personally use the Guard as my Prime Detachment, as I would fluffily say Guard are easier to turn Renegade than Marines. It gives you a nice blob of Troops that can hold your deployment Zone. The SM Allies will be the Heavy hitters and most aggressive with plenty of assault weaponry.
In terms of what conversions you're plannig, the best thing is to make sure that what you want to do will create a unique model that easily works with pre-determined statlines and unit abilities. A Valk converted into a Heli isn't a bad idea, but do make sure you implement it correctly, otherwise you'll have an eye-sore as your centre-piece.
Thats all I can really say, as I don't have the latest SM codex ^_^;;
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Renegades
Nov 23, 2013 20:22:01 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by Reaper88 on Nov 23, 2013 20:22:01 GMT -5
I do intend to use codex IG as my primary force with Marines as allies. The idea is to have a few astartes with a large number of bodies behind them.
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Post by BG. Foster on Nov 24, 2013 4:45:55 GMT -5
If you're looking for a fluff way to explain them working together and turning renegade I personally would do something along the lines of they were all left for dead on a planet following an invasion and the guard saved the marines from some enemy or another.
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Post by Reaper88 on Nov 24, 2013 9:04:50 GMT -5
I'm actually plan on doing a theme that's along the line of Constantius the Liberator.I like the background story of why he truned away from the "light". So having a minor force of astartes with a large force of renegade PDF/ Guard has alot of possibilities.
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Post by Rolling Thunder on Nov 24, 2013 17:19:44 GMT -5
as I would fluffily say Guard are easier to turn Renegade than Marines. Lol, tell that to Horus. Space Marines don't have Commissars.
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Post by RedsandRoyals on Nov 24, 2013 17:26:01 GMT -5
If we're talking the 40k timeframe and not the Great Crusade, he's right though. If you're talking raw numbers, too, the Guard comes out ahead on the Herp Derp Heresy front, since even small regiments are like two to three times the size of an SM chapter.
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Post by macknight on Nov 24, 2013 22:32:43 GMT -5
You can do renegade without being the standard 'corrupt by chaos', I did my guard force based on the many regiments deserted by their own on the democles gulf against the tau empire. Your forces could also be rebelling against the imperium by a planetary governor, or corrupted by gene stealers etc.
I think model wise, you're best bet is to either keep them cohesive through color or equipment. Chaos gods don't like eachother, so no khorne oriented guard with nurgle etc.
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Post by Rolling Thunder on Nov 25, 2013 8:27:02 GMT -5
If we're talking the 40k timeframe and not the Great Crusade, he's right though. If you're talking raw numbers, too, the Guard comes out ahead on the Herp Derp Heresy front, since even small regiments are like two to three times the size of an SM chapter. Pff, if we're talking proportionally, pretty much one in ten Space Marines seem to go renegade, at least according to CSM fluff. It's almost as if being turned into asexual Nietzschean supermen screws with their heads or something. I personally blame the lack of Commissars. If 1/10 Guard formations went renegade the Imperium wouldn't exist any more.
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Post by RedsandRoyals on Nov 25, 2013 12:23:24 GMT -5
If we're talking the 40k timeframe and not the Great Crusade, he's right though. If you're talking raw numbers, too, the Guard comes out ahead on the Herp Derp Heresy front, since even small regiments are like two to three times the size of an SM chapter. Pff, if we're talking proportionally, pretty much one in ten Space Marines seem to go renegade, at least according to CSM fluff. It's almost as if being turned into asexual Nietzschean supermen screws with their heads or something. I personally blame the lack of Commissars. If 1/10 Guard formations went renegade the Imperium wouldn't exist any more. And even if 1 in 10 SM did go renegade, there would still be more renegade Guardsmen. That's my point. I'm going to ignore the Great Crusade for now because there aren't really numbers for how many SM turncoats there were, and it's been stated that large elements of the Imperial Army also turned traitor too. That's why Commissars are a thing now, and the Guard and Navy got split. Using your 1 in 10 hyperbole, and the generally assumed figure of a thousand SM chapters in the Imperium, that would leave us with 100,000 turncoats. If we assume 10,000 men per Regiment on average (A very rough number, the Ghosts had less, the Cadian 8th had more), you'd only need 10 regiments turning traitor to equal the number of SM. If you read some of the 13th Black Crusade fluff there's easily that number. If you want safeguards, an IG regiment usually has one commissar, and a handful of priests. SM have a handful of chaplains (and, to a lesser extent, apothecaries), are psycho-indoctrinated to be loyal, spend a large portion of their time when not in combat praying or doing other religious functions, and, of course, they have the Codex Astartes, a large chunk of which was devoted to numerous safeguards against Marines going all spikey and murder-y (although your mileage may vary there depending on the chapter). The focus on is popular due to the "HURR DURR ITS SPHESS MAREENS SO PEOPLE WILL THINK IT'S COOL" attitude with fluff, and GW heavily overplaying the "Bigger they Are, Harder they Fall" trope. If you read more than the codex fluff, though, it's pretty obvious that it's easier in general for humans to fall compared to SM, and for Guard regiments to go traitor compared to SM chapters. Edit: Just to show Derp Numbers also work out for the Guard turning traitor, there's the Haradni 13th Armored, a traitor regiment which supposedly had 10,000 tanks, including super heavies. If we lowball the crews to 4 men (minimum for a Russ) and ignore support personnel, that's at least 40,000 IG turning traitor in one regiment, although the actual number is probably more. Reds
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Post by Rolling Thunder on Nov 26, 2013 6:39:02 GMT -5
Pff, if we're talking proportionally, pretty much one in ten Space Marines seem to go renegade, at least according to CSM fluff. It's almost as if being turned into asexual Nietzschean supermen screws with their heads or something. I personally blame the lack of Commissars. If 1/10 Guard formations went renegade the Imperium wouldn't exist any more. And even if 1 in 10 SM did go renegade, there would still be more renegade Guardsmen. That's my point. I'm going to ignore the Great Crusade for now because there aren't really numbers for how many SM turncoats there were, and it's been stated that large elements of the Imperial Army also turned traitor too. That's why Commissars are a thing now, and the Guard and Navy got split. Using your 1 in 10 hyperbole, and the generally assumed figure of a thousand SM chapters in the Imperium, that would leave us with 100,000 turncoats. If we assume 10,000 men per Regiment on average (A very rough number, the Ghosts had less, the Cadian 8th had more), you'd only need 10 regiments turning traitor to equal the number of SM. If you read some of the 13th Black Crusade fluff there's easily that number. If you want safeguards, an IG regiment usually has one commissar, and a handful of priests. SM have a handful of chaplains (and, to a lesser extent, apothecaries), are psycho-indoctrinated to be loyal, spend a large portion of their time when not in combat praying or doing other religious functions, and, of course, they have the Codex Astartes, a large chunk of which was devoted to numerous safeguards against Marines going all spikey and murder-y (although your mileage may vary there depending on the chapter). The focus on is popular due to the "HURR DURR ITS SPHESS MAREENS SO PEOPLE WILL THINK IT'S COOL" attitude with fluff, and GW heavily overplaying the "Bigger they Are, Harder they Fall" trope. If you read more than the codex fluff, though, it's pretty obvious that it's easier in general for humans to fall compared to SM, and for Guard regiments to go traitor compared to SM chapters. Edit: Just to show Derp Numbers also work out for the Guard turning traitor, there's the Haradni 13th Armored, a traitor regiment which supposedly had 10,000 tanks, including super heavies. If we lowball the crews to 4 men (minimum for a Russ) and ignore support personnel, that's at least 40,000 IG turning traitor in one regiment, although the actual number is probably more. Reds Absolute numbers do not give adequate comparison.
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Post by RedsandRoyals on Nov 26, 2013 11:33:49 GMT -5
That's why I also discussed safeguards! Reds
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Post by caimheul on Dec 2, 2013 14:01:06 GMT -5
Also worth considering is the existence of human mercenaries, particularly on some of the fringe worlds/guard regiments that have fallen through the administratum's cracks and have to find work elsewhere to eat. It could be that the leader of your Astartes renegades hired the human regiment to fight for him, promising loot from conquered worlds.
Also, slightly off topic, but aren't Space Marine Chaplains supposed to fulfill a similar role to the Imperial Guard's commissars?
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Post by WestRider on Dec 2, 2013 15:46:57 GMT -5
Similar, but not the same. The role of a Chaplain is to encourage loyalty, while the role of a Commissar is to discourage disloyalty. Or to put it a different way, the Chaplain's power primarily derives from his voice, while the Commissar's primarily derives from his gun.
Gives the Chaplains less of a "final solution" type of power, but Space Marines are less disposable than Guardsmen, so a different approach is necessary.
On the OP, this pretty much sounds like a setup tailor-made for Power Blobs. Chaos formations are generally described as having more of an aggressive/Assault bias than Loyalists, and generally worse access to Heavy Weapons and other Support elements. So figure out how you want to do a bunch of Power Axes, and flood the field!
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Renegades
Dec 7, 2013 15:13:16 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by fullmetaljacket on Dec 7, 2013 15:13:16 GMT -5
There is a renegade guard rule set in the imperial armour siege of vraks, Tony A
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Post by mugshot on Dec 7, 2013 21:47:14 GMT -5
The Lost and the Damned army list is in Volume Six, Siege of Vraks Part Two. It only has Exalted Champion of Khrone as one of the HQ units though. Not sure what happened to the other chaos champions. Your heavy weapon's team can take a heavy stubber! Fabulous! Also your elites are Khorne Beserkers, Disciples of Xaphan, and Renegade Ogryn Beserkers. Make of that what you will.
Anyway, this is all for the siege of vraks renegade list. So it's irrelevant if you want to just make a cool renegade army.
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Post by Captain Zapp Brannigan on Feb 13, 2014 14:02:05 GMT -5
A Traitor Guard/SM fluff story could easily be developed along the lines of... Fringe world 'X', was under attack when a company of SM were sent in to reinforce the planet. After fierce fighting the Imperial forces prevailed however the toll of the fierce fighting was apparent. Of the 100 strong SM who spearheaded this defence only 'x' remained (I'd say no more than 30-40 to demonstrate how hard they were hit but still enough to let you field a few units). With the key leadership appointments amongst the rows of the fallen, the younger members of the company were forced to stand up and field the void, accepting responsibilities/positions much senior than their own current experiences. Far away and with no guidance and sporadic communications at best, the young SM's took it upon themselves to rebuild the sector/system/planet and remould it for the better. Eventually the individual adaptions of the SMs were becoming more pronounced and defied previous regimes. Under the leadership of the fallen marines, the masses followed the leadership of the marines who no longer saw the need to be protected by the emperor's light. After all, they had just rebuilt an entire sector/system/planet with no outside assistance whatsoever and nothing was going to stop them... Yada yada yada you get the picture. Apologies if I just ripped off the storyline to a 40K novel. If I just did so I can assure you it was through pure luck as I am unlearnededed in this field
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Post by Captain Zapp Brannigan on Feb 13, 2014 14:31:11 GMT -5
My army has a very similar storyline-Minus the SMs. You see, I love IG and the thought of the lowly grunt taking own astronomical odds however I hate the concept of the Emperor and his bloody Godly SM creations-They just really urine me off how pure and righteous and powerful and how otherworldly they are. So, in order to collect an IG army without the Emperor/SM strings attached, my fluff entailed that the my planetary system was isolated and under a huge threat from Nids, Tau and Orks (The three main armies I play against). Decades of defending themselves and their requests for help not even being heeded, my people decided that it was time to abandon any hope for assistance to come from the Imperium. As such, they definitively invested in becoming completely self-sustainable in the long haul. This wasn't a major shift to make as they had been defending their soil independently for the last 30 odd years by themselves anyway but it was a monumental change for the people psychologically. The shift was an enormous success and the resilience of the people was now bolstered by their newfound pioneering spirit. From that day onwards old, wasteful administrative procedures were abolished, decades of horded tithes to the Imperium were released, new and reliable doctrine, tried and tested in battle that was relevant to the people was adopted and all of the wealth of the system was spent solely on serving people and on no other external elements. 240 years after the declared independence Imperial Explorators came across the planetary system and attempted to orbit the first planet they encountered. Due to the shift in technology, procedures, passcodes and orbiting control measures, the small Imperial fleet was mistaken for a disguised Dark Eldar raiding party who had been recently harassing the system and as such the incoming Explorers were denied entry and blasted into the depths of the void. The live communications log relayed this act of heresy back to the Imperium and system 'X' were subsequently labelled traitors. For the last five years the defenders of 'X' have increased their enemy picture to include the forces of the Imperium and are now forced to reluctantly bear arms against their fellow humans or face total annihilation. Fortunately, the closest loyal Imperial colonies have been forced to direct the majority of their military forces towards the tentacles of Hive Fleet 'X' and a brutal Ork invasion, the very same two threats that system 'X' have been defending against for the last 30 od years... Yada yada yada. This was my attempt at being a non-imperial, human army without being the heretic, brutal, cruel, crazy, angry and mean little suckers and unorganised rabble who are often referred to as 'Chaos'-It's just not my style. However, my friends and the people who I play with tell me that it is not possible to have no allegiance to either the Emperor or Chaos as all who shy away from the protection of the Emperor will eventually be consumed by the temptations of Chaos. Now is this true? I really don't want to have a pompous, loyal-to-the-Emperor Imperial army however I'd still prefer that option of the Chaos fluff. Any tips, advice or wisdom from the gallery? Is this possible or is the 40k fluff newb just talking smack again? Cheers
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Post by cheminhaler on Feb 13, 2014 15:26:41 GMT -5
It's developing, Captain Zapp, keep it up. And, yes, renegades don't have to be chaos but in the 40k fluff any renegade faction usually devolves into chaos worship. Not all members, but there are always one or two bad seeds that corrupt a faction of the renegades and split them up further.
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Post by yvain on Feb 13, 2014 16:28:47 GMT -5
Well it can also be pointed out that the Imperium considers a lot of things Choas worship. I recall reading about a crusade to destroy the heretic notions of "freedom and democracy" on some renegade worlds.
So it could be that they are just listed as chaos-y because the Imperium doesn't differentiate.
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Post by cheminhaler on Feb 15, 2014 15:19:03 GMT -5
Well it can also be pointed out that the Imperium considers a lot of things Chaos worship. I recall reading about a crusade to destroy the heretic notions of "freedom and democracy" on some renegade worlds. So it could be that they are just listed as chaos-y because the Imperium doesn't differentiate. Yes and no. While its perfectly fine to say that your rebel world/ marine chapter/ guard regiment are mercenaries or democrats who have suddenly decided to raise the banner of rebellion against an entity as large as the Imperium, this often happens because of some xenos or occult influence. This is the main reason the Inquisition is so zealous in its persecution of criminals or heretics that are dangerous to Imperial society. Like it or lump it Chaos, the Warp and the Immaterium are all firmly part of the lore. The Warp connects every soul in the 40k setting, from the High Lords of Terra to settlers on some insignificant planet. So while you may think that your rebellion is innocent there very well may be a small cell of chaos worshipping heretics, or human agents of the Greater Good, or generations of genestealer cultists, or ork sympathisers, or.. something that pulls the strings behind the scenes. One day you'll be trading in xenos weaponry, because there's no harm in it, then you'll be reading occult books because there's no harm in that either, and finally you'll be actively engaging in daemon summoning rituals that can affect the life of everyone on the planet, just because it's too late to stop at that stage. This is why the threat is so serious.
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Post by howscat on Feb 15, 2014 22:18:17 GMT -5
I think cheminhaler is already tainted buy the winds of chaos. I shall inform the Inquisition to deal with the matter.
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Post by cheminhaler on Feb 16, 2014 12:23:13 GMT -5
You seem to have access to much information that's above your security clearance, Howscat
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Post by Captain Zapp Brannigan on Feb 22, 2014 11:13:42 GMT -5
Thanks howscat. Because of your remark all members of not only this thread but also this forum, our families, friends, work colleagues, neighbours, neighbour's neighbours and the random guy you parked next to in the supermarket car park will all be subject to an intense and fatal investigation by the Inquisition... ... nice one.
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Post by cheminhaler on Feb 22, 2014 16:07:07 GMT -5
Its not always fatal but they can wipe your memory completely if you're innocent.
I might do a Fallen Dark Angel army using the Chaos marine codex, using Imperial marine models for raptors, havocs and the chaos lords and using wargames factory models for cultists.
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