1500 point army list for 1st league.

[fortresscadia]

Hi guys,
  So here is my first attempt at an army list for an upcoming 40k league.  While I prefer all foot armies, I figure this list may be easier to handle and perform better on the table, and I still have over 100 infantry available; What do you all think?


Company Command Squad: 215 pts
Base, Plasma Pistol (officer), Voxcaster, Regimental Standard, Plasma GunnersX2, Astropath, Chimera

Platoon Command Squad: 130 pts
30-Base, Voxcaster, Heavy Flamer, Melta-GunnersX2, Chimera

Infantry Squad: 70 pts
Voxcaster, Grenade Launcher, autocannon Team

Infantry Squad: 65 pts
Grenade Launcher, autocannon Team

Conscripts: 160 pts
ConscriptsX40, Commissar with power weapon

Platoon Command Squad: 50 pts
Voxcaster, FlamethrowersX3

Infantry Squad: 75 pts
Voxcaster, Grenade Launcher, missile launcher

Infantry Squad: 70 pts
Grenade Launcher, missile launchers

Ratlings: 70 pts
RatlingsX7

Weirdvane Psykers: 60 pts

Vendetta: 170 pts

Leman Russ: 150

Leman Russ: 150

Wyvern: 65

[Aeon]

Oh nuts, I just went and posted in your other thread that me and The Iron Infidel had been helping you with. Go check there for my advice on your army list, you've actually made some of the changed I recommended to you without even reading it, so it's good that you're learning, youngin'

Still see some things I would change, but I addressed them in the other thread

[fortresscadia]

You make some good points Aeon, I never really considered that I dont need as many orders with this list so I threw in a Lord Commissar and did some extra tweaking...now I have:

HQ:130 pts

Lord Commissar with power weapon

Primaris Psyker


Troops: 725 pts

Platoon Command Squad with Voxcaster, Melta-GunnersX2, Chimera

Infantry Squad with Voxcaster, Grenade Launcher, Autocannon Team

Infantry Squad with Voxcaster, Grenade Launcher, Autocannon Team

Infantry Squad with Voxcaster, Grenade Launcher, Autocannon Team

Conscripts: X20 with Priest


Platoon Command Squad with Voxcaster, FlamethrowersX2, Chimera

Infantry Squad with Voxcaster, Grenade Launcher, missile launcher

Infantry Squad with Voxcaster, Grenade Launcher, missile launcher

Infantry Squad with Voxcaster, Grenade Launcher, missile launcher

Elites:

Ratlings X5

Weirdvane Psykers

Fast Attack: 170

Vendetta

Heavy Support: 365

Leman Russ

Leman Russ

Wyvern

[fortresscadia]

you made some good points aeon.  I guess I dont need the voxnets or a CCS when I really only have a few squads that can really benefit.  (the other 2 squads, the conscripts and Ratlings cant get voxcasters anyhow) So I dropped the CCS for a Lord Commissar, give the chimera to the 2nd PCS, picked up a Psyker, dropped the Conscripts to 20 with a priest (to bubblewrap advancing Russes) and beefed the 2 blobs from 20 to thirty.  The idea is the Primaris will join one blob, the Lord Commissar the other, while the Weirdvanes advance between a blob and the conscripts.  What do you think?

1500 pts

HQ: 130 pts
Lord Commissar with Power Weapon
Primaris Psyker

Troops: 725 pts
Platoon Command Squad with Melta-GunnersX3, Chimera

Infantry Squad with Grenade Launcher, autocannon Team
Infantry Squad with Grenade Launcher, autocannon Team
Infantry Squad with Grenade Launcher, autocannon Team

Conscripts X20 with Priest

Platoon Command Squad with FlamethrowersX4, Chimera

Infantry Squad with Grenade Launcher, missile launchers
Infantry Squad with Grenade Launcher, missile launchers
Infantry Squad with Grenade Launcher, missile launchers

Elites: 130

Ratlings X5

Weirdvane Psykers

Fast Attack: 170

Vendetta

Heavy Support: 365
Leman Russ

Leman Russ

Wyvern

[The Iron Infidel]

Just thought I'd drop off a couple more cents. I still don't like mixing heavy and special weapons, especially if the blob is supposed to be advancing. I think it's better to dedicate one blob to heavy support duty, and the other doesn't have to worry about 'wasting' heavy weapon shots. Also, even with grenade launchers, they won't have nearly the same range as your heavy weapons, so they might be less than optimal points spent unless you expect the enemy to get in your face early.

Also, I think what Aeon meant by you having enough orders is that a company command squad can satisfy your orders needs for both blobs, freeing up your platoon command squads to do as they like, (which is probably being a special-weapon toting monster for one turn). From what I've seen and done, the lord commissar isn't that great. Standard commissars are enough to ensure your blobs don't run, and for much cheaper than the lord commissar. You WANT those senior officer orders too, especially Bring It Down on your missile launcher platoon for those big baddies the Tyranids pull out and any vehicles you come across. Even just having a company command squad with a vox, yours now for the low, low price of six and a half meltaguns, can really beef up your fire support and keep your lackluster guardsmen fighting at peak efficiency.

//End sales pitch//

[Aeon]

I don't quite understand your strong urge to bring conscripts along, or your desire to place a valuable and expensive priest in a unit that won't last 5 seconds in the assault phase. The priest is a close combat buffing character, but he is a character, and that means he can be challenged. If he is killed, you've got 20 guys who will now fail combat and run away. it's not even a useful tarpit unit because they'll be routed and killed immediately. I can think of at least a dozen better uses for that amount of points. I'm not even being sarcastic, I'll list them:

These options are assuming your drop the priest and the conscripts:

- company command squad with some nice special weapons, like a plasma gun or 4 sniper rifles for those BS4 Ap2 precision shots (great for character slaying)
- another squad of guardsmen with an autocannon/heavy bolter
- a wyvern
- 2 scout sentinels w/ heavy flamers used to outflank and distract the enemy gunline or to hold objectives
- another chimera somewhere in the army
- an aegis defense line
- more ratlings
- a veteran squad w/ an autocannon and 2 sniper rifles for heavy infantry hunting
- a 5 man Scion squad to ride in your vendetta and go hot something squishy with Ap3 hellguns
- another unit of wyrdvane psykers for an extra mastery level in your army
- more melta guns somewhere else in the army
- a commissar attached to a blob of regular guardsmen for better leadership
- upgrading your primaris to a level 2 psyker
- a bunch of vox casters to make sure your orders are heard and understood

Oops, that was a baker's dozen.

Are you starting to see the picture, youngin'? Conscripts are a serious, serious, serious waste of points, especially with a priest, that just doesn't make sense. Trying to get conscripts to be effective in melee combat or as a tarpit is like handing an artist a hammer and telling him to go paint a on a canvas. In other words: it's impossible

Infidel is right, I didn't mean get rid of your company command squad and replace it with something completely useless for your army list an overpriced lord commissar, I meant keep the company command squad and use it for your orders, and use your platoon command squad as a mandatory special weapon squad, rather than trying to use the inferior platoon command squad as your order givers. If you're blobbed up in big squads, you only need the 2 orders anyway, and the company command squad has access to the best ones. What you've done now, is essentially cut your balls off. You removed the company command squad, added in 2 very overpriced, rarely useful HQs choices, and you STILL have your platoon command squads kitted out for suicide charges (all flamers) rather than sitting and giving orders to your blobs.

Infantry Platoons are the best troops choice we have, BUT ONLY WHEN THEY ARE BEING GIVEN ORDERS!! Without orders, their BS sucks, their Ld sucks, and most importantly, their damn primary weapon sucks. You need those senior officer orders to help them BRING STUFF DOWN, and regroup when they inevitably run away in sheer terror

If you want a tarpit unit, use a regular guard platoon with no special weapons, attach your priest, and add in a commissar for the Ld re rolls and 9 Ld for the whole blob. There are enough bodies with a high enough leadership save to actually do something, and they're only 2 points more than a conscript. They might also actually kill something with them rather than just die and waste your points

I highly recommend using Wyverns in pairs. One of them can really damage a squad, but with 2, you'll probably wipe out an enemy squad or half of one at least, every turn. The game I played tonight saw my pair of Wyverns end the game with 3 full squad wipe outs. 2 wyverns killed 30 models, man. Take a second one, you won't regret it

Also, I've been experiencing bad luck with the regular Russ, recently. yeah it's a high strength weapon, but the scatter tends to screw you over. In my opinion, tanks for Guard, unless they're demolishers that WILL kill what they hit, or eradicators which can kill every light infantry unit under the sun without so much as batting an eye, need to have lots of shots. I recommend exterminators for cheaper tanks. With heavy bolter sponsons, they're the exact same price as a regular leman russ, and that gives you 13 shots per turn, which is more infantry than you'd ever be able to hit with a blast template, and even though they're not AP3, it's still VOLUME that is important. Volume of wounds will always cause more damage to an enemy army than a few high AP shots. Example: I'd take 20 lasguns over 2 plasma guns any day

Another option is to drop a leman russ and find a way to get rid of another 20 points and add a second vendetta. They are stupidly powerful, far more useful to your army than a leman russ battle tank, and it gives you hard hitting, long range anti tank fire power that is pretty damn hard to shoot down. If they have anti air, focus that first, jink EVERY time you're shot, no matter what (that was a hard learned lesson for me), and just buzz around the field hitting enemy armor

Sniper rifles are another one of those quantity over quality kind of thing. sniper rifles don't function in 40k like they do in real warfare. You need basically a firing line of snipers. The more dice you're rolling, the more chance you have of generator AP2 hits that YOU get to place on an enemy unit. Oh, there is a squad of Terminators eating up your gun line? Here come 10 shots that have a pretty good chance of wounding with at least 5 of them, and a 1 in 6 chance of zapping their veteran sergeant right off the bat. Quantity, my friend. Quantity

Also what's your plan for that primary psyker? For 10 points more you could get another wyrdvane squad, which is multiple models and has a much higher chance of surviving long enough to be useful to your army.

If you're into the whole psyker thing, consider an Astropath on your company command squad, they can deal wicked amounts of damage to any unit in the game that is Ld 8 or less. They can still wound an Ld9 or 10 unit, but with a much lower chance of doing so (don't run them against necrons)

[The Iron Infidel]

You might have been a tad harsh on the boy, Aeon. I'm not sure everyone shares your enthusiasm, even if your advice is pretty sound.

[Aeon]

Fortress I apologize if I sounded abrasive, I just really hate conscripts and you can do much better with this list

[fortresscadia]

Perhaps I should have explained better;
I have, up till now, been primarily in the hobby for the fluff and the painting, I played a dozen or so games with friends over the course of 5 years and now I wanna start playing in a new local GW store. What I lack in experience with games played I make up for with my cool models...fully painted, city ruin-based, bearing the decals and unit markings...etc, and I have tons of them!  Now I realize that everyone spams the hell out of Veterans in Chimeras, have 3 Vendettas, and whatever else the new WAAC costs list is.  The thing is...I have nearly 200 foot guard done and I want to use them, the way I wanna play it is unless the game is under 1000 pts I am not going to be under 100 infantry models.  I appreciate the honesty and didn't take anything personally, so no need to apologize.  Just when I asked for advice on these lists I'm not so much asking you to pick a perfect list for me as much as make my fluffy infantry heavy list suck as little as possible

Now I get that you hate the conscripts... my thinking with them was to do the one thing you didn't mention in your dozen suggestions on a way to spend 85 pts, and that is to bubblewrap the Russes.  I only have 4 vehicles and they will draw a good amount of attention, and I want the Russes to advance). 20 models can push back deep striking stuff, rushing bikers with melta...etc pretty well.  I know you suggested taking 2 naked guard squads with the priest and commissar, but that points different ads up...going from 85 pts to 125 (before the commissar you suggested)  Now the Conscripts aren't expected to do much else but wrap the tanks, I almost consider them a better form of camo netting! (at best maybe deny objectives as they are troops if they live) The priest is not there for close combat as much as he is picked for giving the unit Zealot, so no matter how bad they get shot up they don't break and run. A commissar can also do this, but for the same cost I'd rather have the war hymns and auto pass morale checks rather than summary execution and stubborn in the event they do get assaulted. (plus it's likely the Lord Commissar may be close enough to them as well to give them Leadership 10 for a turn or two)

As for your views on the Lord Commissar, I have to admit I am a bit confused...you said in the last bit of advice in your previous post (which you posted in the other thread): "Drop the regimental standard. Hell, you could even just use your platoon command squads to give orders, and take a Lord commissar in place of your company command, for that 10 leadership bubble, and take out that regular commissar."

I thought this a good idea, so I made some changed...and now in this one you said  "I didn't mean get rid of your company command squad and replace it with something completely useless for your army list an overpriced lord commissar, I meant keep the company command squad and use it for your orders, and use your platoon command squad as a mandatory special weapon squad, rather than trying to use the inferior platoon command squad as your order givers."

Here is my line of thinking with this list:  as you noted, I have 2 only blob squads to get orders to.  The Russes and Valkyrie will go after the enemy vehicles, (as well as the melta PCS in the Chimera in a pinch)...the former plus the Ratlings can shoot at the monstrous creatures/ terminators...the wyvern and the blobs will be shooting at everything else, and I plan on both blobs going to objectives...so yes, I will try to get FRFSRF off, (and hopefully buff the blobs with the psykers).  The Lord Commissar is there to keep them locked in with aura of discipline.  Dropping him (or her, as I want to use the old metal female Commissar model) in favor of a near naked Company Command squad to lurk unmoving in the back and give orders will only be good for the chance to use bring it down on the blobs...but I dont plan on using the blobs against vehicles anyhow unless i absolutely have to.  I am not going to load them up with plasma, and I have too many models on the board to risk the MoO as I'll likely kill more of my own troops than theirs...you told me to not put them in a chimera...so how would u suggest I run this CCS for what im intending? 

Two Wyverns are tempting but I only have one, and that is sitting next to me with no treads patiently awaiting its 2nd round of highlights! 

[Aeon]

I understand your intentions way better now, Fortress. I think your list will do fine. I think we have 2 completely different play styles.