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Post by uncommissar on Nov 22, 2015 16:05:41 GMT -5
Sorry if this is on the wrong place, but i recently got in to 40k(getting into i guess)I just bought a bunch of infantry from GW and from third party.
I'm not intimately familiar with all the workings of the 40k universe and everything so i figured i would ask here.
My idea is aesthetically is very similar to WWII russians
but my idea for the background or whatevr im not sure is even possible or plausible, is it possible for guardsmen to be renegade ? by that i mean a non chaos force that also isnt loyal to the emperor ?
Thanks in advance for all the answers
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Post by OConnell on Nov 22, 2015 17:45:16 GMT -5
Welcome!
Yes, there are many instances of renegade guardsmen. Aside from Chaos alignment, another major factor is alignment with the Tau in their expanding empire.
However, I believe what you're looking for is a rebel-type faction with no allegiance to any major empire. In which case, yes, there have been many factions that are simply loyal to A) a rebel cause involving a renegade Imperial Guard army under their own command structure and B) a renegade guard army that is loyal to their planetary governor who may have rebelled against the Imperium.
You're not expected to conform simply to these choices alone. The 40k Galaxy is very big and there are millions of worlds as well as countless soldiers who thrive throughout. You can gain fluff points for coming up with your own ideas about this topic as well.
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Post by RedsandRoyals on Nov 22, 2015 18:05:15 GMT -5
Short answer: Absolutely!
Longer, more helpful answer: Yes, but that means they'll be at war with both the Imperium and everyone else (or, more accurately, the Imperium would be at war with them whether they wanted that or not). The simplest explanation would be a planet, system, or maybe even a sub-sector that declared it's independence from the Imperium, and hoped that they're far enough away from the sector capital that it would go unnoticed long enough for them to prepare for the inevitable Imperial retribution. As a rule, the Imperium doesn't let that sort of betrayal stand, and would do their best to muster a retribution force at some point to retake the world, or at the very least raze it to the ground. They'd also send assassins or Inquisitorial operatives against the newly independant region, in an effort to cut the head(s) off the snake or sow discontent. I admit that all sounds rather grim, but remember that it could take decades- or even centuries -for the Imperium to scrounge up the troops necessary to retake the worlds that have rebelled, so it's not like your regiment's homeworld would be instantly (or even inevitably) doomed.
Some ideas to play around with....
- Thanks to the concept of STCs, it's not hard to explain why your soldiers might look like Cadians or Valhallans or whatever. Their patterns of gear (especially Cadians) would be ridiculously pervasive, so it's not a stretch at all to say that's what the PDF had in the warehouse when they decided to rebel. It's a similar story with vehicles, too, and the world in question could easily have some capacity to keep producing the specific types of gear your troops use, even after normal lines of supply within the Imperium are cut. Just remember that it'll be harder (but not impossible) for them to get their hands on more exotic weapons and vehicle patterns, and the Mechanicus may not support the rebellion. That could lead to them introducing locally produced vehicle designs, opening the door to some cool counts-as conversions.
- Collecting other Imperial armies may be tricky, given that the Imperim would consider rebels desperate allies at best. But! There are other ways to explain away teamups with Imperial factions. For instance, if you want to collect Space Marines at some point, maybe the local chapter was the one to initiate the rebellion over worlds they control and recruit from, and your regiments went along with it. Your system may also establish their own version of the Inquisition, to ensure that everyone remains "loyal" to the rebellion (or if you run an Ordo Xenos inquisitor, they could be proxied by a sympathetic Rogue Trader or pirate captain). The local Mechanicus cult may have joined the rebellion, too, if you decide you want to collect a Mechanicus army to go alongside your guard, and the Grey Knights would fight against daemons if they attacked these rebel worlds, for fear that an incursion may spiral into Imperial-held space. Your world may also be willing to deal with the Tau to secure a new line of supplies, or hire Ork bloodaxe mercenaries to bolster their numbers against the inevitable retribution. Maybe they've even made a deal with the Space Elf Devil, and enlisted the aid of the Dark Eldar. The only Imperial faction you'd struggle to justify would be the Sisters, since their response to a rebellion would be to "Burn it all down".
- If you've got some buddies who are just starting out, maybe try to turn your world's rebellion into an narrative escalation campaign. The first battles are 500pts, and slowly increase in size as you collect or convert more models. Each battle could be important to the history of your planet's rebellion against the Imperium, and any models that distinguish themselves may become heroes of the revolution!
- The nice thing about 40k is that you can get away with a lot in terms of fluff. There are a few hard and fast rules you can't break, but you can worm around anything else with a little imagination. If you want more inspiration, take a look at Only War, which is a Guard-themed tabletop RPG. One of the main opposing factions is a former Imperial sector that rebelled against Imperial rule (although they still claim to be devoted to the Emperor). You may find some interesting ideas in there.
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Post by uncommissar on Nov 22, 2015 20:16:05 GMT -5
okay cool,I had always heard that 40k was more open ended on the fluff than fantasy(of which i play and have a very strong little group ) now, i just got my codex ordered so i havent had a chance to read it yet, are the commissarrs the leaders or are they literally just the guys that stand in the back and scare the troops into not running ? the other thing is, when the imperium actually does make it to my world, would it just be a loss no matter, or could my troops stave off the attacks for a time ? also if my troops do lose the initial assault (my plan) would it be theoretically possible for my troops to remain a pain in the ass by being guerrilla insurgents ?
also Reds, i read your big post about fluff FAQs and it has been highly valuable to me, as i consider the ability to write my own fluff the biggst selling point for an army
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Post by RedsandRoyals on Nov 22, 2015 20:59:57 GMT -5
To answer the first part of your questions, normally commissars are just there to watch for heresy and betrayal, and to maintain discipline. They're the safeguard against corruption and the most egregious examples of incompetence. They hold no active command within a unit, but are there mostly as an adviser, and an independent force that can keep everyone in line. This being 40k, there are exceptions. On rare occasions, Commissars can be commissioned with a dual rank. Colonel Commissar Gaunt, from the Gaunt's Ghosts series, is the best known example of this in the fluff. It's uncommon and sort of an awkward position politically, but there's basis for it. Commissars can also take temporary control if the senior officer present is killed, wounded, executed, or spectacularly useless (which usually becomes "Executed' very quickly). They may also find them in command of an ad-hoc force in a crisis, or be assigned to command a small detachment for a special mission of some kind. You also get more leeway if your regiment is creating their own "Commissars" after the Imperial fashion to keep their troops in line. They could be given field commands on a more regular basis, as the line between adviser and officer might be eroded after the Imperium is rejected.
For the second part of your question, the answer is also yes. Things get a bit complex here, though. In theory, the Imperium prioritizes stamping out rebellion and independence movements very highly. If one succeeds, that could start a domino effect among other systems, and pretty soon everything collapses. That's the thinking, anyway. So the Imperium would be more likely to commit forces here than some dinky forntier world that's up to it's eyeballs in Orks. The stakes are higher. At the end of the day though, it comes down to logistics. While the Imperium does have billions upon billions of soldiers at it's beck and call, there's only a finite amount anywhere at any given time, and they would most likely have other strategic commitments they also need to devote some of their strength to. Plus, they have to feed, arm, and armor all these troops, and all that equipment has to be moved to support any sustained campaign. Massing sufficient men and material to launch a sustained campaign to capture a well populated world (with a populace committed to resistance) is a huge undertaking. Even if all the gear and grunts gets assembled, there's the problem of carrying it to the front. To paraphrase Franklin Roosevelt, the Imperium simply doesn't have enough navy to go around. Even the simplest warp going vessels can take decades to construct, and they're lost, led astray, or delayed by warp travel all the time.
In short, logistics is a b*tch.
So, that gives your people a good chance. Maybe the Imperium takes too long, and by the time they have the forces ready to try and retake your world, you're well entrenched and can defeat the invasion. Maybe the Imperium can only commit forces piecemeal thanks to a shortage of ships, and your regiments are able to destroy each arriving detachment in detail. Maybe the invasion fleet gets lost in the warp, or shows up on the wrong side of the galaxy. Maybe they can't even must the men and ships to begin with, so settle for an asymmetric campaign of raids, assassinations, and sabotage to lay the groundwork for an "Eventual" invasion. Whatever happens, if the Imperium can't initially respond, or their initial response fails hard enough, they'll file the whole situation away as "We'll try again later". Then they're most likely to forget about it, getting swept up in other wars and crises that demand more immediate attention. That's one option.
Another is the Imperium launches a campaign, but a sudden crisis forces them to abandon it and relocate their men and material elsewhere to meet it. This is effectively what happened in the Damocles Gulf crusade against the Tau. The arrival of a Tyranid hive fleet forced a massive strategic pivot, and the crusade was essentially abandoned. If that's the case, see above with the "Try Again Later" situation. The Imperium may come back later. They may not. But for now, your independence is preserved. A spin on this would be having something disastrous happen before your planet declared independence, causing the Imperium to effectively abandon the area (or be driven out of it), and your planet is left to fend for itself. Then the Imperium wouldn't be any the wiser to your continued existence, never mind independence.
The last option is that, for whatever reason, the Imperium isn't strong enough to overcome you, but is too strong to be driven off. As a fluff tool, consider some sort of "Buffer" world in the same system as your planet. It's an important stepping stone the Imperium needs to take before they come to your planet, but your people have chosen to fight them there so they don't have to fight them at home. The Imperium can't drive you off the world, and you can't kick them out of the system. At that point, it becomes an attrition battle (although not necessarily WWI-Trench-Warfare-Zepplins-Mustard-Gas style attrition), which your people have a good chance of winning, since they're basically sitting on their own logistic base, while the Imperium has to ship everything from the nearest friendly planets. This also gives you a chance to have your world spared any real destruction and retribution, and have their independence maintained, while giving you a setting for battles against loyalist forces for table top games or fluff writing.
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Post by OConnell on Nov 23, 2015 1:35:40 GMT -5
Following up on that, the siege of a world called Vrax, mentioned in the ForgeWorld series as The Siege of Vrax, was a war based on the fact that a group of individuals of high power lead a coup against the planetary government to seize power thus giving them the stores of weapons and all the major cities of the planet. This rebellion force lead the rebel military against the Imperium's Death Korps of Krieg Army who waged WWI-style trench warfare over a span of 15 years if I remember correctly.
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Post by uncommissar on Nov 23, 2015 13:44:52 GMT -5
So here is a quick general idea i have please let me know if there are any holes in it or if it is just dumb haha.
Basically, My planet will be een planninghuge, tons of land mass, large population, however most of them are very poor,so many young men and women join the Astra Militarum and PDF not out of patriotism, but for survival.
The planetary governor is not loyal to the imperium, but is smart enough to pretend it, for several years he has been plotting a coup, his third son was put in charge of the PDF, even though all the men see him as arrogant and pompous.
basically i want his years of planning to take effect in the middle of a Dark Eldar Raid. Right before the 314th regiment is tithed(right after they are trained before they are sent out) his loyal troops all turn on the Commissars in the midst of battle.
Through great leadership and perseverance the 314th and the PDF fend off the invaders.
a report (or whatever it would be) is sent before the battle is over. telling the Imperium that the planet is lost.
so i don't know if the imperium would check on them or what
but if they did my troops would ambush them. I was thinkning of having a few planets nearby for supplies and resources that couldnt be obtained through trade.
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Post by uncommissar on Nov 23, 2015 13:46:28 GMT -5
And Commissars would be replaced with those loyal to the Governor/King, mainly because i love the commissar models
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Post by OConnell on Nov 23, 2015 15:43:48 GMT -5
That's very well thought-out. Were the Imperium to receive a convincing, yet possibly false, message from the planet surface that they have been overrun and entirely overencumbered by a Dark Eldar fleet of massive proportions, the Imperium may leave the planet be for a very long period of time until they have a grand strategy, the willingness, or simple desire to recover the world(s). It would also take plenty of time for them to muster the army to achieve this as well as the navy, transport time, and an extensive scout unit to obtain any information on the planet that they could.
Though, if this planet may be considered lower priority for the Imperium or very far from the reaches of Imperial space, it may take decades to centuries for them to take any interest in this world that may have been supposedly lost.
Good layout though, it all makes sense in context.
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Post by cheminhaler on Nov 23, 2015 15:54:15 GMT -5
Equally the message could be received right away and some space marines might get sent in to investigate immediately. Some chapters, like the Doom Eagles, are even obsessed with investigating crimes involving the disappearance/ death of an entire planetary population. It's not a matter to be taken lightly... Librarians make ideal investigators for this sort of sortie.
Either way it's an interesting plot hook. You have an instant story as to why you could be fighting other Imperial armies, which are usually popular enough that you'll be fighting them anyway in random pick-up games.
Also for the coup to be successful the governor would have to have replaced all the local Munitorum adepts with those loyal to him, not to mention problems with the Ecclesiarchy or other Imperial organisations which could have a presence on the planet, clandestine or otherwise.
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Post by uncommissar on Nov 23, 2015 17:28:03 GMT -5
I have one member of our group plays 40k he collects mainly sisters. We have a "rival" group about an hour away we occasionally see so I have plenty of opponents. So the guy who collects sisters is excited that I am starting a guard army and we are planning an escalation style series of games set right after the rebellion, would sisters be a plausible first responder ? And if I win against them would the imperium then be fully aware of my existence unless I wiped them out totally ?
Also this is actual mechanics sort of. But I 60 infantry a decent start to an IG army ? Its what I will have when all conversions are done
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Post by RedsandRoyals on Nov 23, 2015 17:47:22 GMT -5
Also for the coup to be successful the governor would have to have replaced all the local Munitorum adepts with those loyal to him, not to mention problems with the Ecclesiarchy or other Imperial organisations which could have a presence on the planet, clandestine or otherwise. Assuming they aren't all tragically and mysteriously killed during the raid... |
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Post by uncommissar on Nov 23, 2015 19:06:48 GMT -5
Assuming they aren't all tragically and mysteriously killed during the raid... Boom, Love it haha |
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Post by cheminhaler on Nov 23, 2015 19:14:04 GMT -5
The Ecclesiarchy have their wicked ways. Because they are so rich it's easy to think they could have their own astropath to report what's really going on, unless the local chief cleric was in on the whole thing. If they weren't and happened to get killed the Sisters could still get sent in, either to investigate how badly the church was damaged by the alleged Eldar slave raid, or maybe you could add in the next plot hook, such as important saint bones being interred in the monastery/ church establishment itself and the Sisters are a bones recovery team.
If the world is quite isolated it'll be easier to pull off the independence scam but that doesn't make the planet invisible. If there is a large population and they start making themselves known as space pirates the Imperium could send a Navy taskforce to eliminate threats to local space travel.
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Post by uncommissar on Nov 25, 2015 12:11:22 GMT -5
So how close would a ship carrying sisters have to be before my governor would know they were coming ? Assuming the sisters think the planet is pretty well destroyed
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Post by RedsandRoyals on Nov 25, 2015 17:31:42 GMT -5
Depends. Do they have early warning auger satellites and stations? Do they have any system defense ships? Are the Sisters broadcasting some sort of hailing message to any survivors on a loop as soon as they enter the system? Might be best to pick when they're detected and work backward from there, figuring out a "how" that would fit.
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Post by cheminhaler on Nov 26, 2015 15:35:32 GMT -5
If the first boatload of sisters gets blown up it'll escalate the situation even more, especially if they make a preliminary report. Once a ship is detected in-system they could already be scanning the planet for life forms and if they see a busy planet with lots of ships orbiting they will know something was wrong with the initial warning message.
If they realise it was all a lie and detect hostile incoming ships they'll try to escape and come back with more Imperial back-up.
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Post by Trooper One-Nine-Seven-Four on Nov 28, 2015 0:48:00 GMT -5
This thread is full of heresy!
Delicious, delicious heresy.
I like the way it's going...
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Post by ElegaicRequiem on Nov 29, 2015 11:11:39 GMT -5
One of the planets I write about was brought to its knees and forced to become an Imperial world by economic warfare. Maybe flip that and consider how your world(s) might use that to their advantage. I know my planet has plans in the works to regain independence that way because: Irony!
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