Wall of Martyrs in 8th ed.

[that1guy]

  Either way, I just love the wall of Martyrs.  It's fluffy.  Fit's exactly how I imagine the Guard when I read the fiction.  I started collecting the wall of Martyr's when my over ambitious white booty bought the Aquila pattern strongpoint fortification (and then read the rules and found I had to escalate my army into Apocolypse points levels before I could even play it) and like the models even more when I discovered how easy they were to build!  So I almost have one of each from the set and I'm going to kit bash replicate them all because I just can't bring myself to buy 10 more boxes of the trenches & 3 more heavy weapons emplacements (which lost their rules and are now just the same as the trenches) and it's something that I can see using all of my sprue plastic.

  No I'm probably going to play the capitol "F" out of the wall of Martyr's because I like the play style.  You don't have to over think your move (hell I don't even have to move!) sit back in my trenches, sling artillery down range, let the enemy come to you.  As a matter of fact I just heard Commissar Gamza over on the Youtube mention that he sold his Guard army because he was so sick of how long it took to deploy/move/fire all of his troops. And if I don't have to move I can keep my turns shorter in turn.  Maybe that's lazy, but this is a hobby for the weekend and I don't want to hear my opponents sighing as I move my entire 50 man conscript squad for the 2nd turn and then.... well, you guys know the drill.  It's my weekend I deserve to be lazy on the weekends!

  But the thing I'm asking is.... and I'm guessing the answer is "no" because I don't see any other guard players making room for the WoM's in their lists, are these things tactically viable or competitive?

  Back in 7th I had stunning success with the fire storm redoubt vs. Flyrants, but things have changed haven't they?

  I'm just asking for y'all to throw me some ideas on what you think of the set, and I really want to see them from another perspective.  Maybe consider some things I've not yet taken into account!

[RedsandRoyals]

The only cover your infantry should have are the bodies of those who were sent in before them.

But more to the point, play what you like and see how it does, then adjust accordingly. I think the conventional wisdom is bringing bodies first, because we can pack so much cool stuff into a list that fortifications become a waste, and you get better returns on your detachments by stuff from the conventional FOC slots. That said, your local meta may reward fortifications, so who knows?

[that1guy]

Jan 30, 2018 22:59:30 GMT -5 RedsandRoyals said:

The only cover your infantry should have are the bodies of those who were sent in before them.

But more to the point, play what you like and see how it does, then adjust accordingly. I think the conventional wisdom is bringing bodies first, because we can pack so much cool stuff into a list that fortifications become a waste, and you get better returns on your detachments by stuff from the conventional FOC slots. That said, your local meta may reward fortifications, so who knows?

The wall of Martyrs ARE the bodies of those who were sent in before them... look at the model, that's exactly what it is!

  but on a serious note, I get your point.  For the points cost?  Yeah, that could go towards more Wyvern's & Manticore's! 

[nutty]

I picked up a couple of wall sections and bunkers not to long ago. Haven't had the chance to use them though.

Some of the pieces (firestorm redoubt comes to mind) are really expensive, but I'll probably try them once or twice.

[that1guy]

To me the Agies Defense line seems well priced for the amount of guard you can pack in it, I love the extra quad gun when expecting to face 3 or more Flyrants. I would encourage anyone to argue just because I'm trying to look at the game from new angles.

But let me ask the community this; In the context of a local meta that did so happen to reward fortifications ~or~ in a context where I am too stubborn to take the sound advice of those who make great points as to why it is not wise to bring my really, really cool looking fortification.

What kind of unit's would the community recommend I man my fortifications with? As in who should be hiding inside?

My first thought for Bastion's, Fire Storm Redoubt's & the lil' command bunker was SWS's with sniper rifles. Mostly because they are really cheap and have great range.

Recently I have been experimenting with the idea of packing my Aquila Pattern Strong Point with lot's of Auto Cannon's or Laz Cannon's. I do want some one to show me the flaws in my logic, but if I park that big bad muther luver on the table it's got some great fields of fire. Guaranteed to have great fields of fire if I field it with the cannon instead of the Vortex Missile Launcher variant because the vortex missile Launcher strong point doesn't need line of sight, in that case I may be the one hiding behind cover and you can bet I will park a few mortars on the 1st floor deck. In that situation I don't think I would pack it full of any cannon's... more likely conscripts or flame thrower's.

If I had a bastion or command bunker with poor fields of fire would it be wise to pack them with SWS's with flame thrower's? Some times it's impossible to get all of your fortifications great fields of fire. In an army where I am bringing multiple fortifications it isn't always possible to get every bastion & every bunker line of sight that can maximize the full range of 3 sniper rifles.

Now that Command squads don't have to hang out directly with the Company Commander would it be advantageous to pack some of them into the fortifications with a heavy bolter or some other heavy weapon's team?

What do you all think are sound ways to load these fortifications? Any interesting combinations come to mind?

[nutty]

I would sooner fill my bunkers with lascannons; they are scary and expensive so they could use the extra protection. As much as I want to like SWS with snipers they rarely seem to do anything for me. So perhaps a HWT with some lascannons and perhaps a command squad with a lascannon and some plasma guns to put in a small bunker.

The bunkers seem like an interesting addition in combination with some walls. The firestorm to me seems really overpriced to me; as you (as far as I can tell) have to buy a set fairly pricey guns to field it, but said guns don't look like they will do a whole lot. Having a bunch of lascannons that hit most units on a 6+ strikes me as a fairly poor investment, unless you know you will be facing a lot of units with the 'fly' keyword.

[that1guy]

Again, I had GREAT success the one time in 7th ed. I fielded the firestorm redoubt and yes it was against a lot of units with the 'fly' keyword. (all of my local 'nid player's love to play list's with 3+ Flyrants.)

Plasma rifles... yeah, you've got some good points here Nutty. My SWS with sniper rifles rarely seem to do anything for me either, but again... they are cheap and have great range.

In a Bastion or bunker with poor line of sight or a poor field of fire would a flame thrower or melta or GL be a wise occupancy?

[RedsandRoyals]

Have you guys tried sniper rifles on a command squad? The BS is better, you get an extra rifle, and it's dirt cheap, plus there's the whole ridiculous Gun-Fu mortal wounds Vossies can use them for. It seems like the next best choice after Ratlings if you want to run snipers.

I feel like a flamer would only be good in a bunker if you KNOW your opponent is going to throw GEQs into your backfield in a certain area. Even then, aren't they deepstriking out of flamer range? You'd have to leave the bunker or hope they come close enough. That's even more true of Meltas, which are more expensive and usually have to be used aggressively to get them where they can pop a vehicle before it can disembark it's passengers into your squishy guardsmen.

I'd say a Chimera is a better choice for your short ranged units. It has the mobility to react to deepstrikers, it can carry two SWS full of meltas or flamers, and it can carry a pair of heavy flamers itself. Plus you have the flexibility of YOLOing it into the enemy line if you don't need the passengers to babysit your gunline.

[that1guy]

Feb 2, 2018 15:34:31 GMT -5 RedsandRoyals said:

Have you guys tried sniper rifles on a command squad? The BS is better, you get an extra rifle, and it's dirt cheap, plus there's the whole ridiculous Gun-Fu mortal wounds Vossies can use them for. It seems like the next best choice after Ratlings if you want to run snipers.

I feel like a flamer would only be good in a bunker if you KNOW your opponent is going to throw GEQs into your backfield in a certain area. Even then, aren't they deepstriking out of flamer range? You'd have to leave the bunker or hope they come close enough. That's even more true of Meltas, which are more expensive and usually have to be used aggressively to get them where they can pop a vehicle before it can disembark it's passengers into your squishy guardsmen.

I'd say a Chimera is a better choice for your short ranged units. It has the mobility to react to deepstrikers, it can carry two SWS full of meltas or flamers, and it can carry a pair of heavy flamers itself. Plus you have the flexibility of YOLOing it into the enemy line if you don't need the passengers to babysit your gunline.

Yes, I have run sniper rifles in command squads, SWS's & vets... ALL IN THE SAME GAME! lol,  I haven't run them in a command squad tucked away in a bastion or bunker because, well I haven't played much 8th edition honestly and it was back when the command squad HAD to be attached with the Company Commander so now that it's different.  Rest assured I will give this a try.

  So if a squad of SWS with flame thrower's is tucked away in a bunker would I get some sort of overwatch attack upon my opponent's trying to enter the building to get in range of his say.... chain axes?  Would a flame thrower gain any over watch bonuses of wacky defensive rules tucked away in a fortification?  (if you've paid for the escape hatches you can have them pop up in any other empty fortification you control on the table too)  So even if your opponent does not deep strike exactly where you placed your SWS flame thrower's I think I should be able to react to the assault as long as it lands some where behind my lines... maybe?  With the Catachan flamer love doctrine that could be a powerful reaction force.

  I'm starting to think that a safe bet to occupy my fortifications would be just plain jane laz rifles.

  {edit} I just thought of something!  In a bastion (with great line of sight) I think I would prefer the SWS with sniper rifles over the command squad because why pay for the extra sniper rifle when they can just man the heavy bolter that comes with the fortification?

  But the CCS as R&R tailor's it would I think be more efficient in a fire storm redoubt since you're likely to pick it some sweet firing lanes to help control air supremacy.  It would work well in a bunker too!

  If I just put a minimalistic CCS in a Bastion they could all just fire those Heavy Bolter emplacements...  at that mo'betta BS... for like, no upgrades.

[nutty]

I'm not sure if escape hatches are still an option in 8th, or if you can enter an occupied fortification.

The problem with flamers in overwatch these days is that you measure range before you opponent moves. So if people put their guys at 8.0000001" range and than declare a charge you can't use the flamers.

[that1guy]

Feb 3, 2018 5:45:02 GMT -5 nutty said:

I'm not sure if escape hatches are still an option in 8th, or if you can enter an occupied fortification.

The problem with flamers in overwatch these days is that you measure range before you opponent moves. So if people put their guys at 8.0000001" range and than declare a charge you can't use the flamers.

...and these are questions I want asked in this thread, so here is your participation trophy!

[that1guy]

Well what do you all think of the Vengance weapon's battery? Isn't it always nice to have another punisher gattling cannon at your disposal?

[nutty]

Meh... it hits on 5's and has to target the nearest model. I'd rather pay an extra 50 points and get an actual punisher: you get to double the shots if you don't move, hit on a 4+, target whatever you want, redeploy your 24" gun, plus you get two more wounds and a heavy bolter.

The vengeance towers look really sexy, but I'd much rather take a Russ with a punisher/battlecannon.

[emptyhat]

Does str 5, ap-, heavy 20 work better in 8th?

[nutty]

Feb 27, 2018 0:23:50 GMT -5 emptyhat said:

Does str 5, ap-, heavy 20 work better in 8th?

Kinda.. in the same way lasguns/boltguns work better because they can now hurt all the things. And it still works pretty good vs small stuff with low saves.

[treadiculous]

given the punisher was a weapon of many shots, the fact that twin linked weapons now shoot more shots the punisher has lost a little of its position, however, given the way everything can be wounded by any weapon, firing 20 shots at something isn't a bad idea.

[RedsandRoyals]

I'm a fan, since it benefits from being able to shoot twice for Heavy 40 thanks to the Russ special rule. Throw it on a Cadian command tank for good times.