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Post by Trickstick on Dec 7, 2018 11:20:31 GMT -5
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Post by nutty on Dec 7, 2018 13:49:20 GMT -5
Nice, glad to see the 5 point guardsmen nonsense turned out to be speculation.
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Post by RedsandRoyals on Dec 7, 2018 16:01:46 GMT -5
The discord for our local hobby shop went through those this morning. Some thoughts.
- Holy heck, Mechanicus onagers are down by 20pts! They were already fantastically costed.
- I'm not sure why the plasma executioner went down in points, but yes please! I think the points reduction for the eradicator was more warranted.
- Chimeras down 15pts! YES! They're back, baby!
- Heavy flamers down 3pts, flamers down 1, autocannons down 2, missiles down 5, grenade launchers down 2. All of these are warrented, I think.
- Multilasers got halved. With the sentinel cost drop, they're down to 35pts total at their cheapest loadout. That's pretty solid.
- Rocket pod valk went down by 21pts.
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Post by Trickstick on Dec 7, 2018 16:49:04 GMT -5
Nice, glad to see the 5 point guardsmen nonsense turned out to be speculation. No, it's true! They just meant Veterans. (-: I'm excited about a few things. Mainly the demolisher is not expensive anymore. In fact, you can get a las/plas/stub demolisher for 184pts now, just 4 more than the old las/bolt battlecannon russ. I see my assault tank list coming back. |
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Post by nutty on Dec 8, 2018 3:56:51 GMT -5
A lot of our wargear got a deserved price-cut. Missile launchers are good weapons but used to be to expensive, at 10 points a piece I will be taking some. Autocannons and multilasers are still in a weird spot, but that's more to how the edition works than anything else.
All in all some much deserved love for the guard. I was half expecting to see us get cracked over the head with the nerfhammer so hard I'd have to start using the narritive play rules. We seem to be getting a lot of hate and "nerf guard" talk because all the 'Imperial Soup' lists use guardsmen as a way to get a buttload of CP. 5 point infantrymen and a price increase have been a speculated "fix", that would fix nothing and only hurt pure guard lists.
Edit: it appears the albums is gone, should have saved those images..
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Post by Trickstick on Dec 8, 2018 6:27:37 GMT -5
They are all over the nets now, so not hard to find more. I'm liking the cheaper demolisher cannon, may have to take 3 las/plas demolishers for an armoured assault. It will probably depend on how the new tank formation interacts with tallarn.
I'm liking the new scion formation too, long with cheaper scions. Perfectly made for a single valk filled with them dropping next to something.
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Post by treadiculous on Dec 8, 2018 12:11:17 GMT -5
"- A section on Looted Wagons that lets you design and convert any kind of ramshackle Ork vehicle you can imagine then use it in open play"
this is excellent news!!!
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Post by nutty on Dec 8, 2018 13:35:15 GMT -5
"- A section on Looted Wagons that lets you design and convert any kind of ramshackle Ork vehicle you can imagine then use it in open play" this is excellent news!!! Fun stuff, same as the system that lets units improve/progress over time. I just wish they'd take the time to add some pointsvalues: open play isn't very popular in my area. |
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Post by Trickstick on Dec 8, 2018 14:37:40 GMT -5
Tempted to break out my 6 chimeras again. Multilasers have a point now they are cheap. New formation makes voxes kind of useful. The only thing is if I want to switch to armageddon over tallarn. I love moving but that 18" rapid fire is interesting.
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Post by RedsandRoyals on Dec 9, 2018 22:14:08 GMT -5
Don't take Steel Legion, please! Tallarn is superior in pretty much every way, and I say that as someone who loves the Steel Legion and desperately wants them to be good.
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Post by Trickstick on Dec 10, 2018 7:33:44 GMT -5
Don't take Steel Legion, please! Tallarn is superior in pretty much every way, and I say that as someone who loves the Steel Legion and desperately wants them to be good. I think you are underestimating the power of that 18" rapid fire. That extra distance opens up a lot of tactical flexibility, letting units support each other from further away. You also get to rapid fire from a distance that the enemy has to make an 11" charge, rather than a 5" charge. The vehicle doctrine is pretty good too, as there are a lot of weapons with -1ap. Assault cannons, auto cannons, heavy bolters, heavy flamers, krak grenades etc. All things that are likely to get thrown against chimeras and sentinels, whist the big guns go for russes. An armoured sentinel can shrug off a surprising amount of fire when it can ignore -1ap. Sure, -1 to hit is bad, but it is a valid choice to take Armageddon. They work pretty well with the new Emperor's Blade too. The overwatch stratagem punishes those that try to make the long charges. Rapid redeploy lets you kite at 18" pretty effectively. Basically, I think that people underestimate Armageddon's power as a mech regiment. I run Tallarn, but when I think about playing mech I think how little the bonuses actually help. Ignoring -1 to hit is great, really great, but the rest doesn't really do anything. Advance and shoot with infantry is ok on the dismount but a bit too random to make transport positioning reliable. Ambush can only do one vehicle, which is also limiting. I think that Steel Legion is the right choice for a mech force; I would just limit vehicle heavy weapons to reduce the power of -1 to hit. For example, take demolishers or punishers with limited sponsons to save points. Make the sentinels into flamer sentinels, or just cheap multilaser ones. Or take longer range vehicle choices, so movement is less necessary. Now I want to build 3x flamer demolishers and laugh manically... |
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Post by RedsandRoyals on Dec 10, 2018 9:33:20 GMT -5
Counter Point!
While 18in rapid fire is good, we actually have a limited number of rapid fire weapons to benefit from it, mostly lasguns and plasma guns. While both weapons are obviously good, there are platforms in the Guard that do the same job just as well, if not better, at longer ranges (mortars and Executioners spring to mind). The main trick here is increasing the radius of FRFSRF. Again, while not bad by any means, it's only really going to help you out against infantry and some tough creatures. Basically you're offering a small but nice buff to your infantry, and giving your vehicles better protection against autocannons and the handful of other AP -1 weapons out there (most of which are anti infantry anyway, like heavy bolters and bolt rifles). Their order is very situational since it can't be used on the same turn you got out, and since you want your chimeras to be sitting still to actually hit what they're shooting at (unless you run the double flamer build, which is pricey but excellent)
Tallarn, on the other hand...
- Allow your chimeras to run around at full tilt without penalty, making things like the Gryphonne variant hilarious bullet hoses without negating their advantage as transports
- Gives your infantry mobility boosts directly, in that you can advance and shoot (albiet at a lowered BS). Incidentally, this helps boost their rapid fire range, giving them a buff that's similar, if very much lesser, to Steel Legion.
- Makes sentinels viable as a unit choice. With the CA 2018 changes, they become VERY good.
- Makes sponsons viable on Leman Russes that want to move, like the demolisher and punisher. It also makes the newly cheaper Heavy Stubber absolutely worth it as well.
- Gives you great board control without compromising the shooting effectiveness of your heavy-hitting transports and trying to make up for it with extended rapid fire range (which, if you're already flinging infantry around the board in transports, is less important anyway)
- Allows your tanks to move away from melee threats without compromising their ability to blast said threats off the board.
- On a similar note, allows your Russes to maneuver and shoot without penalty thanks to the tank order. Short range tanks can move up, double tap with the main gun, and then scoot forward even more. Leman Russes become indirect fire weapons in essence thanks to peeking around buildings, firing, then hiding again. It's also great for getting LoS on units your opponent thought they hid.
- Provides an interesting warlord trait that, while not especially competitive, provides EXTREMELY frustrating infantry to fight. It also lets you fall back from a unit, blast it with the same squad (and anyone nearby), then safely wrap it in melee again to hamstring it next turn.
I just feel that the Tallarn doctrine offers so much to so many more units in the army, and makes swaths of units and upgrades actually viable. It allows you great board control thanks to physical unit presence without punishing their killing ability and increasing their threat radius. It offers options for protecting units as well. I just feel like it indirectly lets you do everything Steel Legion does, but gives you additional buffs as well.
*Edit*: Steel Legion are great in smaller games such as 500-750pts. You'll have less vehicles than in the larger games, so you're maximizing output from your infantry squads and getting better board control on a smaller table. You're also more likely to see people bringing autocannons to rough up whatever light vehicles normally show at those point levels, so that does help out your vehicles a bit.
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Post by Trickstick on Dec 10, 2018 11:39:29 GMT -5
I do agree with your points, which I can't really argue against because I play Tallarn. I look at your list and it is every reason that I love them. The -1 ap and the 18" just seem like great boosts to me. When ignoring -1 ap, sentinels can get a 2+ save in cover against most weapons. That makes them stupidly durable. Assuming you are taking Russes as well, things like lascannons are going to be busy shooting at them. Also, with mech there isn't much infantry for all of those guns to shoot at, so they are going to be after your light vehicles.
When I look at the 18" rapid fire, I think about situations I have had that would have benefited greatly from it. For example, An enemy unit in cover could return rapid fire at you at 12", whereas at 18" they would have to leave cover or get fewer shots. Or you may be able to stay in some cover 16" away from them and still get rapid fire.
Of course, you could take a mix of Tallarn armour and Armageddon mech, but brigades are so good that it is a shame to give up all the cp.
I think my general point was that Steel Legion do have a lot going for them, and it is not a foregone conclusion that Tallarn are always going to be the better choice.
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Post by RedsandRoyals on Dec 10, 2018 13:28:33 GMT -5
I think my general point was that Steel Legion do have a lot going for them, and it is not a foregone conclusion that Tallarn are always going to be the better choice. Agreed, that's why I edited in the note about smaller games where they really maximize their firepower. Tallarn > Steel Legion won't always be the case, but it's a good rule of thumb. We're lucky that all of our doctrines are viable, even if there are clear winners in the group. They can all be made to work. |
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Post by Trickstick on Dec 10, 2018 14:56:56 GMT -5
Mordian Emperor's Fist Russes would be an example of a less used regiment having something fun. 4+ overwatch with rerolls sounds good.
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Post by RedsandRoyals on Dec 10, 2018 21:52:55 GMT -5
Vets getting a bit cheaper also helps buff them, since their Form Firing Squad order is great when used with plasma vets.
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Post by Trickstick on Dec 23, 2018 4:26:44 GMT -5
I recently had it pointed out to me that there is no regimental restriction on what transports can carry. So if you take multiple detachments, you can have Tallarn Chimeras with Armageddon troops. It would cost an extra cp for a second Blade detachment, and you would need to have enough Tallarn vehicles to unlock transports, but it is definitely an option worth thinking about.
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Post by RedsandRoyals on Dec 23, 2018 18:33:23 GMT -5
Doing a quick read through, that's accurate. The strategems only say it needs to have the same formation keyword for them to work, so you can overwatch with a Tallarn chimera for Steel Legion troops. The special detachments are only limited to one per detachment (so they can't be stacked), not a 0-1 on each type. Be prepared to get smacked in the face with the Vigilus rulebook if you do this though.
I think Mordian infantry in Tallarn chimeras would be hilarious though when fighting Orks/Nids/World Eaters, especially if they multicharged. "My infantry hits on 5+, my Chimeras will fire overwatch in support and hit on 4+, and then the chimeras will do their own overwatch on a 6+".
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Post by Aeon on Jan 11, 2019 9:56:56 GMT -5
A lot of our wargear got a deserved price-cut. Missile launchers are good weapons but used to be to expensive, at 10 points a piece I will be taking some. Autocannons and multilasers are still in a weird spot, but that's more to how the edition works than anything else. All in all some much deserved love for the guard. I was half expecting to see us get cracked over the head with the nerfhammer so hard I'd have to start using the narritive play rules. We seem to be getting a lot of hate and "nerf guard" talk because all the 'Imperial Soup' lists use guardsmen as a way to get a buttload of CP. 5 point infantrymen and a price increase have been a speculated "fix", that would fix nothing and only hurt pure guard lists. Edit: it appears the albums is gone, should have saved those images.. I LOVE Imperial Soup. At the most bare bones, you can take a Brigade Detachment with Imperial Guard, for about 1000 points, maybe just a bum-hair more or less. I was adding it up on battle scribe the other day. You take a company commander, lord commissar, 50 guardsmen, 20 concripts, 3 scout sentinels, 3 platoon commanders, and 3 basilisks, you get 12 CP and even those naked guardsmen/vehicles are very deadly when all together. Then you spend your CP on important stuff, like buffing whatever else you took. I can give my Deathwatch re-rolls to wound, every single turn of the game, and other crazy shenanigans |
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Post by Rolling Thunder on Nov 14, 2019 21:59:07 GMT -5
Got to be honest, whomever adjusted Commissars needed beating with a stick. The entire point of Commissars is to keep the men fighting against the odds.
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Post by nutty on Nov 15, 2019 3:31:07 GMT -5
Got to be honest, whomever adjusted Commissars needed beating with a stick. The entire point of Commissars is to keep the men fighting against the odds. I agree, but apperantly it was to strong an ability for us to have. Personally I hope they undo it in the next CA, although I doubt they will. |
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Post by Aeon on Nov 22, 2019 16:18:27 GMT -5
There is another rumor floating around of a 1 point increase to guardsmen. I thought the Conscript nerf was bad enough, them being worse than guardsmen, more prone to running away, can't take orders effectively and running away in droves. They're almost unplayable now
I'm really hoping that Psychic Awakening brings back effective guard infantry. It's getting kind of ridiculous now, all the micro changes that GW is doing to all the armies
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Post by nutty on Nov 23, 2019 10:52:32 GMT -5
The 1 point price-hike was rumored for the last CA as well, lets hope it stays a rumor.
I hope they put in a rule that ties CP to the detachment that generated them: that way they can stop adjusting the IG codex in order to regulate Soup lists.
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Post by Trickstick on Dec 11, 2019 20:25:18 GMT -5
It is one of the immutable laws of the universe:
I think a price increase for Guardssmen has been rumoured constantly since 8th came out, and it has never happened. Not to say it won't, but it seems unlikely.
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