|
Post by ghostmaker on Jan 24, 2008 19:45:40 GMT -5
Question i posted on other forum about the Vindicare can yall try and clear this up it makes sense to me in the way it's worded just read
can he shoot into combat cause it says "regardless of targeting restrictions" that means the only restriction on targeting a model is that it has to have range and line of sight.
I t makes sense he can pick out guys why not pick them out in combat ?
"Assassins break rules (Callidus breaks the Deep Strike rules, Culexus breaks the assault rules, and the Vindicare breaks the targeting rules). That's what they do."
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
@moleytov: You cannot draw line of sight THROUGH a close combat. There is no restriction on drawing line of sight TO a close combat.
Also close combats only block line of sight up to the height of the tallest model in the combat.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just wondering ? ? ? ? ?
--- “The difference between gods and daemons largely depends upon where one is standing at the time.”
"Kill Maim Kill Maim Kill Maim"
Blood for the Blood God
|
|
|
Post by mccaptain on Jan 24, 2008 23:41:44 GMT -5
I would say line of sight is blocked as soon as it hits the base of the model closest to the shooter and no you would not be able to target a specific model in CC. The Vindicare is good, but not that good.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2008 13:24:28 GMT -5
i think he is.
|
|
|
Post by sammy1979 on Jan 25, 2008 19:14:21 GMT -5
he can shoot anything he can see in range, but not combat, no one could shoot into combat. but i believe there is a speciel charecter that can (maybe a ork in the new codex). or so the rumors go!
|
|
|
Post by ghostmaker on Jan 26, 2008 1:46:40 GMT -5
But he can cause in his Rules it says he igrones any thing that would block his Line of sight for him to shoot at you ....yall can double check in the Demon Hunter book how it is worded he can do just that. Another point made by Bell of lost souls "Ever have a pesky model that manages to survive a close combat in your opponent's turn and denies your ability to wipe out the enemy unit in your next shooting phase? No problem. As long as the Vindicare has line of sight and range, he can target ANY model. That includes models in your own army. This also denies your opponent the ability to consolidate (often leaving him packed tightly from the previous turn's Pile In move)..." Nos said "not shooting in CC is a "targeting restriction" as much as not singling someone out. I mean *semanticly*, I don't see the difference. ixe said "Add to this the fact that he costs 100 points for 1 shot per turn which has a 46% chance to do a wound... He would be utterly useless if his marksman rule was arbitrarily limited.
|
|
|
Post by ghostmaker on Jan 26, 2008 1:47:26 GMT -5
Basically i belive he can and the People at the store i play and the person running agreed but i just want to see yall's thoughts its very valid
|
|
angelusmortis
Captain
Courage is resistance to fear, mastery of fear - not absence of fear. -Mark Twain
Posts: 210
|
Post by angelusmortis on Jan 26, 2008 7:11:43 GMT -5
I would say line of sight is blocked as soon as it hits the base of the model closest to the shooter and no you would not be able to target a specific model in CC. The Vindicare is good, but not that good. This is the correct interpretation. Allow me to explain my reasoning. 1. Models engaged in CC block line of sight. 2. So any model you draw LOS to in CC would therefore block your LOS and not be engagable. As to the Assassins breaking rules part, that is totally false. They do not break any rules. Callidus does not deep strike, her special rule is "Polymorphine". It in no way is Deepstrike or related to DS, it is its own special rule. It is better than DS, true, but it is not breaking DS rules because it is not DS. Cullexus does not break targeting/assault rules, it follows "Psyker Assassin" which is its own unique special rule. And finally Vindicare does not break targeting restrictions, it follows its own special rule called "Marksman". All this "so and so breaks these rules" is pure garbage, as they have their own special rules. They arent breaking anything. The whole concept of this "breaking rules" mentality is whats confusing people like yourself. Its not supposed to be compared to the norm, its supposed to be taken for what it reads.
|
|
|
Post by ghostmaker on Jan 29, 2008 17:37:31 GMT -5
Well Have you read the DH codex and seen the wording He does indeed Follow his own rules but his rules allow for him to shoot into combat as stated in the codex DH and I mean really he's a 110pt and the best marksmen in the universe so i mean i'd think he'd be able to. It is Blocked To you can shoot into it with him i beleive Look at the demon hunters codex..
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2008 18:28:45 GMT -5
the fact is we can argue back and forth all year. were gonna say no he cant and your gonna say yes he can. someone needs to call games-workshop and settle this out.
|
|
angelusmortis
Captain
Courage is resistance to fear, mastery of fear - not absence of fear. -Mark Twain
Posts: 210
|
Post by angelusmortis on Jan 29, 2008 20:17:24 GMT -5
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2008 21:22:48 GMT -5
im calling the ruleboyz tomorrow
|
|
|
Post by Cadian 117 on Jan 30, 2008 22:13:07 GMT -5
Some one should. I dont really know the actual answer but I can say that for 110 pts he should. But hey I didnt make the game.
|
|
|
Post by knight (M.I.A) on Jan 31, 2008 15:28:32 GMT -5
A close combat blocks LoS. Stand somewhere in the rulebook The Vindicare rule allows to pick any model as target you can draw a LoS to. So where is your problem now? CC = blocked LoS = no picking targets from CC
The assassins bend the basic rules by using their own special. But in my oppinion the "worst" bending is the rule of the Eversor. Moving at full speed, shooting one of his pistols twice and still charging. The rule of the Vindicare on the other hand is a really old one. The sniper of the Last Chancers list could do the same long time ago.
|
|
|
Post by ghostmaker on Jan 31, 2008 19:20:57 GMT -5
The way it is worded you can Do it and i see you said dice off but i was just wondering what yall would think. The store i Play at and the over whelming people i play with say he can. O Man I dont see way people agrue this cause he kills off one model MAYBE In the army in combat and it may break that combat o well your fighting ethier a all DH army that is already sucky a Space Marine army which may Suck unless some one made a good list or a IG army which could turn out good. In the DH wording it says he can target any Model Regradless of Trageting Reserctions AND CLOSE COMBAT IS A TARGETRING RESTRICTION .......just my personal take on it sorry.. The Eversor isnt that bad i'll admit i've seen him destory half a Tau army but THATS a close combat Guy ....the Vin. can maybe kill 6 or less cause he can still miss on the wound so its not a big deal i think .......thanks for yall's thoughts
|
|
|
Post by knight (M.I.A) on Jan 31, 2008 20:30:27 GMT -5
In the Witchhunter Codex it says that he can pick any target he can draw a LoS to. The Core Rulebook states somewhere that a CC blocks a LoS.
So when the target is in a CC you don't have a LoS to it and you can't pick it as target.
|
|
|
Post by ghostmaker on Jan 31, 2008 22:54:11 GMT -5
Thats the witch hunter In WH " says can target any model in and RANGE , LOS regradless of targeting restrions" In WH40k rules " Models engaged in combat block Line of sight though them " K he igonres it cause he can target into them just not though them ....Pg.21 i think of the 40k rule book look it up compare to the Dh rules which i belive are the same as the WH (cant find mine ) do have my WH...... I think he can and like i said before every one i talked to agreed
....the Vin. can maybe kill 6 or less cause he can still miss on the wound so its not a big deal
|
|
angelusmortis
Captain
Courage is resistance to fear, mastery of fear - not absence of fear. -Mark Twain
Posts: 210
|
Post by angelusmortis on Feb 1, 2008 6:30:25 GMT -5
Thats all true, but as I stated earlier, one could interpret what you read either way, which is why it will wind up a dice off. Unless of course, one or the other player just doesnt care that much about it.
|
|
|
Post by knight (M.I.A) on Feb 1, 2008 10:05:21 GMT -5
"Models engaged or locked in close combat block line of sight up through them to the height of the of the participating models. [...]" Page 20, Core rule book 40k, 4th edition. So the first model participating in a CC blocks the line of sight to any model of same or smaller size in or behind the first mini. Also on one of the following pages its stated, that you have to draw a LoS to the body of a model and that a limb is not enough.
So the only question is: "May you target the closest mini that is engaged in CC?"
|
|
angelusmortis
Captain
Courage is resistance to fear, mastery of fear - not absence of fear. -Mark Twain
Posts: 210
|
Post by angelusmortis on Feb 1, 2008 16:45:09 GMT -5
Well the crux of the problem is the wording of the Marksman rule. It says "regardless of restrictions" then gives a couple examples. Problem is, there is nowhere in the BBB that gives a definitive "these are targeting restrictions" list. So that leaves it open to interpretation which is why I say just dice it off. Its not a game breaker so I dont see why dicing it off should be a problem.
|
|
|
Post by knight (M.I.A) on Feb 1, 2008 17:22:15 GMT -5
Regardless of restrictions as long as you can draw a LoS. (at least in the German WH and DH codex, I don't have a English version of them, only an English rulebook). So for me the situation is clear. Shooting in CCs with the Vindicare is impossible, since you don't have a LoS into CCs.
|
|
|
Post by ghostmaker on Feb 2, 2008 0:02:16 GMT -5
angelusmortis Thanks man .... i may have messed alot of wording up but yea i just wanted to see yall's thoughts ...The way its worded you can shot in....Like i said the big Group i Play with all agree he can most of them but he's not a Game ender like the Eversor can be O gawd i've seen him tear half a Tau army in half
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2008 0:03:08 GMT -5
close combat is defined as blocking line of sight. so imperativly the close combat is pretty much a building as that it blocks line of sight. you can not shoot at a building or through the building. therefore the vindicare assassin can not shoot into close combat.
end of all three of your discussions on this topic.
no ifs ands or buts. the vindicare is not this powerful. now regardless as to shooting your own men i will continue to call the rulezboy.
|
|
angelusmortis
Captain
Courage is resistance to fear, mastery of fear - not absence of fear. -Mark Twain
Posts: 210
|
Post by angelusmortis on Feb 2, 2008 5:44:35 GMT -5
close combat is defined as blocking line of sight. so imperativly the close combat is pretty much a building as that it blocks line of sight. you can not shoot at a building or through the building. therefore the vindicare assassin can not shoot into close combat. I happen to agree with you, however, as I stated in my earlier post, the crux of the matter is the wording. It says "regardless of any targeting restrictions", and they have a legitimate argument agains what we think because "CC blocking LOS" could be considered a "targeting restricion". Its GW total lack of communication skills at work again. So its not as clear as you (or he) would like it to be, hence the dice off or in his case, the gentlemens agreement that he and his buddies came to.
|
|
|
Post by knight (M.I.A) on Feb 2, 2008 9:30:19 GMT -5
Angelusmortis and Ghostmaker, sorry if I sound harsh now its not intended to flame at you or anything like that, but I don't know how to say it in different words. Start thinking! You can't shoot at something you can't see. Or could YOU (personally) shoot at something that is hiding behind a wall and you only know its there, but not where exactly?
PS: If some mod knows a better way to express what I want to say (or considers that its too much of flaming) edit my post to this, so that it won't sound like flaming
|
|
|
Post by ghostmaker on Feb 2, 2008 10:00:46 GMT -5
"Yes, individual models in a CC block line of sight, but if you can draw a clear line to a model in CC (without passing through any other models) then the Vindicare would indeed be allowed to target him by the RAW" "YAKFACE" Admin on dakka The thing also is i think to your comment is this .50 cals can see though walls with Thermal and then punch though a wall why couldnt the year 40,000 have the same thing if not better.
And to your statement yea he is that good ....read Fluff on him he's amazing basically...And o Man he's such a theartcaus ehe can totally miss on a 1 for hit and on a 3 to wound ....he can maybe kill 6 models in 1 game maybe. The eversor is worse omg.
I mean you can just think what you want like i said i wanted to see what yall said And my Group all agreed he can
And Space Puppy GW said in His rules he can target any model up to LOS and Combat is up he can see in it just not though it on pg.21 of rulebook i think
|
|