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Post by knight (M.I.A) on Feb 2, 2008 12:35:41 GMT -5
Ok I was at the German GW HQ today and asked. All of the employees and veteran players said no. Its clearly stated what the Vindicare can do. Even in the English version. The Marksman rule just removes the restrictions of visible targets. Everything that isn't visible for the Vindicare is impossible to choose as targets. CCs are treated as impossible target for them. Only units they could name who can shoot in close combats are all Skaven, following their racial special rule and Banshees from the old armybook Vampires, if that will still be the same with the new Banshees from the new armybook I'll see soon.
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angelusmortis
Captain
Courage is resistance to fear, mastery of fear - not absence of fear. -Mark Twain
Posts: 210
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Post by angelusmortis on Feb 2, 2008 17:53:08 GMT -5
knight (M.I.A), I hear what your saying Brother, and like I stated earlier, I tend to agree with your interpretation. However, I also recognize the fact that in the English version, it clearly states "regardless of ANY targeting restrictions". Targeting restrictions literally means "things you normally would not be able to shoot". Shooting into close combat can be considered a targeting restriction, therefore the GW Marksman rule contradicts itself. That is why I have to agree that he has a valid argument. You can interpret it either way. Therefore it would require a dice off or gentleman's agreement. No offense Brother, but perhaps its a subtlety your missing not being a native speaker (I'm assuming)? PS- No offense taken by your earlier post. Its not overly harsh, I hear what your saying and tend to agree with your take on it, but I also have to realize his take is also valid.
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Post by knight (M.I.A) on Feb 2, 2008 19:36:39 GMT -5
I'm no native speaker, but that doesn't change the fact that many people already thought I'm an American (your not alone anymore, Gris).
Like I said, I went to store and asked some of the veteran players and the staff about that. And they all said "NO". A close combat blocks LoS and you can't shoot in a CC at will, not even the Vindicare and the old Last Chancers sniper. The Marksman rule says that he can ignore all target restrictions, but he still requires a clear LoS to the target and that isn't given if: - the target isn't in range - if the body (body is imporant, a nose, foot or hand doesn't count) can't be seen by the shooting model - is in a close combat
And I hope nobody is going to tell me that the part with no restrictions will also allow you to shoot at targets which the Vindicare can't see. He might be good, but not that good.
About units who can shoot into a close combat: All Skaven due to their racial special rule "Life is cheap" and the Banshee can use her "scream attack" to "shoot" into CC. The Skaven can hit enemy and friendly units, while the Banshee only hits opponents.
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angelusmortis
Captain
Courage is resistance to fear, mastery of fear - not absence of fear. -Mark Twain
Posts: 210
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Post by angelusmortis on Feb 2, 2008 23:14:15 GMT -5
Like I said, I went to store and asked some of the veteran players and the staff about that. Thats irrelevant whether they are staff or veterans because I have both those credentials as well and disagree with them. I worked at a GW store in Texas and I have been playing this game since Rogue Trader. See my explanation above. Me repeating it isnt going to change what I said. Its a valid point either way due to GW's poor wording. Again, totally irrelevant as thats WHFB not WH40k. Two different game systems, two different rule sets. There is no comparable unit in 40k that I am aware of. Now, seeing as we disagree to the interpretation of the rule in the book, what does the problem resolution flow chart from GW say to do? Thats right, dice off.
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Post by ghostmaker on Feb 2, 2008 23:33:07 GMT -5
K well what GW store sorry i Live in Texas also turst them just wondering
And like i said eariler almost all of the Veterans say he can
Cause it's not a huge factor he has a 2 chance's to miss every time he shoots
And i understand he's not that good but i was replaying to the comment that you cant shot though walls which indeed you can with a Baretta .50cal and thermal you can tear almost anything.
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Post by ghostmaker on Feb 2, 2008 23:38:53 GMT -5
@moleytov: You cannot draw line of sight THROUGH a close combat. There is no restriction on drawing line of sight TO a close combat.
Does have a good point and o well just wondering what yall thought cause Dakka agreed with me and most others did with me to incliding a hardcore rules lawyer at my store.
thanks for comments and the rest
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2008 2:04:28 GMT -5
i really need to get through to the damn ruleboyz...
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Post by knight (M.I.A) on Feb 3, 2008 7:41:50 GMT -5
I finally got my hands on the English Marksman rule. Its indeed a very poor wording and very difficult situation. But the point is that he has to be able to see the target otherwise he'd be able to shoot at targets that are not visible for him, ie. units hiding behind tanks, buildings etc. A close combat is more or less like a building with the soldiers inside when it comes to shooting. You can't target in it (I know there are weapons in real life which could, but this is 40k and not life) as it is no valid target for weapons, even for the Vindicare it is still a target he can't pick. The LoS rule from the rulebook isn't overwritten by the MArksman rule, but the Vindicare can pick independent chars standing near or in a unit as target. I really have to admit that the German wording is much better in this case than the English wording but without the LoS (which isn't given as soon you REACH A CC) he can't shoot in the CC. The marksman rule allows you for example to pick independent chars standing within 6" around a unit as target.
Just something short about LoS: Everything that blocks LoS blocks it from the point on where the LoS "hits" it the first time. The first thing the LoS of the Vindicare would reach is the base of some soldier and he can't get through that. So you can draw a line TO a CC, but you can't draw a LoS IN or THROUGH a CC. The LoS is interruppted as soon as you reach the first base of the first participating model in that CC. So if you place your heavy weapons clever in CC, you can block a reallly large area.
About the two fantasy units and the people I asked: I only said that thsoe are the two only units who can volunteerly shoot into CCs. In 40k there is no such unit. In 40k you can only shoot in CCs by accident with barrage weapons and before the rule change you could shoot in CC with guessing weapons (I loved shooting in CCs with my mortars, too bad that it doesn't work anymore). The number of üeople who said that was important. The note that they were staff and vets was just to make sure nobody shouts "You asked new players for that!"
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angelusmortis
Captain
Courage is resistance to fear, mastery of fear - not absence of fear. -Mark Twain
Posts: 210
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Post by angelusmortis on Feb 3, 2008 8:44:09 GMT -5
Just a note Knight, the word "block" by definition means you can see whats blocking, just not beyond it. But thats what were trying to explain, it very poor wording.
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Post by knight (M.I.A) on Feb 3, 2008 9:07:31 GMT -5
The blocking starts as soon as you hit the rim of a base of the first model involved. So you actually can't even see the mini itself, only the rim of the base. Just take a sheet of paper and lay it around the bases. Everything you have inside of the paper can't be targeted. Its the base and not the mini that counts.
So you can see just until the CC starts, but not the first mini that is invovled in the CC. That's what it says about LoS. You have to see the CC as a whole and not just as single minis. You can't target anything within or beyond the CC (unless its taller than the blocking CC, of course). The Vindicare can pick the exact target he wants to kill, but he has to see it for that, and a CC isn't a valid target since he can't see in it. He can see until the outer rims of the bases, but not on or accross any bases of participating minis. The Vindicare also has no problems with targeting independent chars near units. The only really interesting question I get is what happens if he shoots at a Tyrant with Tyrant Guard, but that's another topic.
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Post by ssgtdude (M.I.A) on Feb 3, 2008 12:58:16 GMT -5
Well, great explanation on the cc and los. However, in doing so you opened a new can of worms. Even by your own explanation the Vindicare would still be able to target a model in CC. The model in question would have to be the first base he draws a line to. Which is very possible when dealing in a cc that holds a IC or other special character.
Not trying to stir up more on this, but you are right in your careful explanation on how CC blocks LOS. This is just a new can of worms when going by the explanation and hence why there is confusion regarding the Vindicare's ability to shoot into cc.
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Post by knight (M.I.A) on Feb 3, 2008 13:07:34 GMT -5
No it would happen. The rim is blocking the line of sight and you need to be able to see the body of a mini to target it. since the blocking of the LoS takes place at the base edge you can't see the body of the mini and therefore you can't target it. Angelusmortis already said it, its a really bad wording in the English version, and I can only agree with him. Both the Marksman rule and teh rulebook are more clear in the German version than in the English version, but basically they're saying the same.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2008 15:21:38 GMT -5
can we get a mod to lock these threads please. no matter what explination we give. i could even finally get through to the ruleboyz and give the perfect explanation of a firm and simply no. even then ghostmaker and anglemortis would go our "game store says yes so were gonna do it."
so lets just lock this thing up!
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Post by ghostmaker on Feb 3, 2008 18:40:19 GMT -5
I dk why your so against us talkin about another GW mess up i mean they do it ALL the time getting rid of Bits not doing a good rule set alot fo stuff......
Like i said from the Beginning Space Puppyjust wanted to see what people though of this rule mess up by GW ...
And Rulesboyz may not be there any more cause GW probely messed that up
Love the game dont like the company.
well if it does get closed good talking with yall
And BTW space Puppy people on Dakka Agree with me to
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