do IG still have the advantages we supposedly have

[Deleted]

from the previous games(as in, until 6-7 months ago) and the codex, it seems we have the advantages of swarms of infantry and lots of good tanks(also leading to good firepower).
however, it is my impression that with the changes to the game environment we no longer have these.

a)tanks:in the current environment it is so easy to pack either an army with ridiculous rending ability or an army with lots of Strength 7+shots.example:

50 genestealers cost only 800 points, and will destroy any mech list to ribbons if 20 survive the first turn, and marine/necron/tau/some eldar lists can pack 15+anti-tank shots per turn.
in this operational environment what's protecting a vehicle is NOT its armour value anymore(easilly surpassed) but its protective abilities:skimmer/smoke launchers/machine spirit/living metal/holo field. since we only have smoke, which can only help our transports, our tanks are now very fragile, even the demolisher(rending, melta, lances, etc. we can't handle)

b)infantry:in the current format, the only T3 armies are the Tau and eldar/dark eldar, all mechanized, lasguns won't help much. against t4 armies(genesteeler swarm, marines, blood angels, dark angels, templars, some eldar with wraithguard, necrons, chaos etc.)
not only do u have only 1 casualty per 10 lasgun shots(statistically) but their mobility(!?!why all new power-armoured armies have insane mobility wheres the "heavy" concept in that?) will make sure they focus on one of your flanks so 40% of your troops will fire, then they charge.that is, if u have 150(yes, 150) soldiers, 60 will fire, 40 rapid-fire mode for 40x2+20=100 shots=10 kills the whole game!then they just assault in the second round and consolidate with their higher init...ridiculous mobility...
answer:the only models we have are the ones with special/heavy weapons, surely no more than 40 per 1500 army, the lasguns will do nothing anymore.the others are "extra wounds" that might help in shooting(for wounds allocation), not in close combat though...and since we are t3,sv5+ these wounds also do nothing.

[Deleted]

example of lists in my playgroup:
a)eldar with 2 prisms holo-fielded, 1 falcon with fire dragons, 3 serpents, 2 of which have avengers and one has banshees and autarch.second turn charge... always...
b)eldar with 18 harlequins, 2 farseers, 2 wraithlords(lance+missile, both have, bs4+guide...)1 falcon with fire dragons
rest are rangers with pathfinders and vypers...no tanks for me post-2nd round...then harlequin charge...
c)blood angels with land raider crusader+termies, 2 baal predators, teams of 3+1+1 multi-melta bikes(5 mobile multi-melta with bs4!no tanks if he plays first!!!)2 assault squads for troops, chaplain and death company.
d)2 shooting fexes, 1 winged tyrant, 60 genesteelers.
e)3 hammerheads with railguns, 4 skimmers with fire warriors, all vehicles upgraded to fast to abuse the skimmer rules, and a crisis team.
f)2 monoliths(!) 1 lord, 40+necrons, deep striking and killing heavy weapon squads/vehicles as if they were flies.
i actually consider myself lucky when i play against the Tau player...the others are just way too much powergaming cheese for my list(and for the one unlucky guy that plays normal marines and the 2 of us seem to be the others' poor cousins, only against him i can win)

[rarves]

You and your unfortunate friend should team up for some team games, you'd probably lose, but you'd lose together. On a side note I hate it when people don't actually have much of a theme to their army and just take every cheesy rule they can. In the group in my town that guy's dark angels always win. One game it was four players, all against each other, and we wanted to see who could have the last army standing. We threw out morale and it was a pretty awesome game, but what I'm getting to is that the dark angels started winning pretty badly, so me and the other two players teamed up and destroyed his force(by the way, never play with somebody so serious that they went onto a fit of rage every time they lose). We continued fighting amongst ourselves after that. My best friends SM's ,the Dark Astartes, won.

[Rolling Thunder]

My advice; when cheesed: return the favour.

Some examples of cheesy guard armies:

3 stripped-down demolishers with smokes and rough terrain.
Drop troops with demo charges, meltaguns, veterans and 4 spec. weapon command squads, heavy flamer sentinals galore.
All-inflitrating armies with cameloine, sharps and bazillions of spec, heavy and BS4 weapons.
Set up all the 4+ save terrain in your half when they're not looking.
Against the 4+ save armies: 3 Griffons/Leman Russ Exterminators (Griffons are excellent becasue you can hide them behind terrain) and 3 Hellhounds.
Demo charges are always a nasty surprise.
Hum annoyingly.
Gasp with surprise every time your opponent makes an armour save.
Dance and giggle with glee whenever you kill something.
Smile knowingly whenever your opponent moves.
Put four 50-man conscript platoons with an independant commissar in each on the field.
Schaffer's last chancers.
Hide your tanks behind LOS-blocking cover in case the enemy gets first tunr (and remember to take a dozer blade).
Buy a Baneblade. Always a win.
Use an all-infantry army with cameoline and dig them into cover. As I see it, your enemies lack antipersonel firepower.

Thats all I could think of. Sadly, the IG list does not allow for very much in the way of counter-cheese (something of a design flaw) so your on your own from here on in.

[Woz]

Most people who play IG don't just play to win. IG armies can be cheesy, but gamer's that likes unbeatable armies tend to chose armies that are easy to play with to start with then add cheese to make them unbeatable.

IG are a difficult army to get to grips with but once you've mastered them then they're a hard army to beat (without them being cheesy).

[9th Company]

If you want a cheesy IG army couldn`t you do something like this.

Doctrines Grenadiers
HQ choice
Junior Officer
Troop Choices
2, 5 man Storm trooper squads.
Fast Attack
3 Hellhounds
Heavy Support
3 Demolishers

Without upgrades that will come to around 960 points and packs a lot of punch for a 1000pt battle. I`m not sure if it would be allowed but for a 2000pt battle you simply repeat the above army list by starting up a new force organisation chart.

I`d never play an army like this. My Guard are based around a Cadian Shock Trooper Company with plenty of fluff. But like Rolling Thunder said fight cheese with cheese.

[rarves]

Rolling Thunder, your list I found humorous and very amusing.

[Deleted]

I have to second that RT - very funny and great light relief - I was getting quite depressed... alternatively take an armoured company, or jungle fighters (and only ever fight in a jungle), or develop a genestealer cult army (hmmm my precious), or cross breed with a tau and create strange cow like people with a desire to do thing for "The greater food".

Or here's an idea - only fight other guard units! That way you're ensure a fair and reasonably realistic fight where tactics actually play a part.

Still it's great when you beat them...

[Rolling Thunder]

Suneokun has a valid point: Where the (insert expletive of choice) are the tactics in 40K? Certain armies, like the guard and (to a lesser extent) tau, eldar and some daemonhunters and even the oddclever space marine will use tactics, but most armies just a matter of composing a headlong rush to the enemy lines in which they take unfeasibly light casualties and still hit your lines despite throwing enough flak at them to destroy a small continent.

[Colonel Scipio]

Well, I know what you mean there.

For my money, the IG is the only army really left that needs any tactics at all. When StatBashing (ie. in a square fight that comes down to ten dice rolls, and where consequently stats are crucial) the IG almost invariably loose or at best draw. We can't rely on a good armour save or toughness, and so without even thinking about it an IG player is a stronger tactician. An SM player wouldn't think twice about waltzing his marines directly towards a guard squad, confident of being able to face down the lasguns with two, maybe three casualties. When the reverse happens simply in order to preserve their forces, an IG player has to consider both cover and arcs of fire; the two principal considerations in mobile warfare.

I think AddictiveWoz summed it up best; once you've got the hang of these tactics, there's not very much that can stop you since other players haven't developed tactics out of nescessity. But until you get these tactics, your fragile troops will be all to easily bumped off and you'll loose a few games.

That's not to say there are no skilled non-IG players, but in my experience the fluff and tactical flexibility and adaptibility of the Guard (with it being the closest comparison to real armies) tends to attract players and repel the beardy magpie players who just get Baneblades.

[Deleted]

Ooo ooo look at me, I got something right. Seriously though, I was really surprised when "company of heroes" followed the production of "dawn of war" for THQ. I thought, ok how are they gonna this justice ... but I was SOOO wrong. Company of heroes was twice the game because your men actually died...

Dawn of War has demonstrated to me what's been going on in GW for ages, that plate bashing close combat and super armour is more important than tactics, LOS, fire lanes, suppression, mixed armour tactics, or anything else that actually resembles modern conflict and tactics.

We sit here and ruminate about how "great" we are to play imperial guard. My brother's biggest problem is working out which combination of sparkly Eldar Aspect Warriors to take, I have to work out what he might take (he has nearly everything), how best to kill it, how to stay alive and how to win... which is a toughy.

Still if I wanted things easy - I should have collected SMurfs, yawn.