Save gunlines in 5th!!!!

[Deleted]

it is known that 5th edition will not help gunline armies a lot:
a) friendly models give enemies 4+cover save, so heavy weapons much less effective
b) the run rule will help marine-like armies(though other armies like nids and eldar already had fleet of foot, so no biggie there)
c)much more casualties during cc due to EXTREME ld modifiers(if u lose the cc u get -x Ld, equal to difference of wounds caused, yay for -3/-4 Ld)
d)objective control much more important, deciding victor instead of just giving victory points

any ideas as to how we can retain cadian/mordian/death corps gunline lists viable?

[acolyte]

follow my example, stick to 4th ed

[Deleted]

unfortunately even if i do stick to 4th, my playgroup won't...

[cathedralsquares]

Put your heavy weapons on the edge of your squads and space them out a bit more.

[Deleted]

To balance out what you've said-

A) Most likely, the squad giving the 4+ cover save (through which you shot) would take wounds equal to the number of wounds negated by the cover save'd squad behind them. Or that's how I would do it. Also, it should be negated completely by any sort of template weapon. Basically, you only get it if you're being fired on by semi/automatic slug/bolt/las fire.
B) What did you expect? The Marines are Games Workshops' babies.
C) Bah. Guard were NEVER made for CC, anyway.
D) More Sentinels. More Hellhounds. MOAR!

[ssgtdude (M.I.A)]

The only way the gun line is going to remain a viable option is to reinvent how you play the gun line.

On deployment instead of deploying 12 inches out deploy at 11 1/2" if you go second. If you go first deploy at the 12". Movement is your friend. By moving forward and backward you should be able to continually have Rapid Fire and able to bait a unit into channel to effectively take on even more heated firepower from your troops.

With the use of armor, and templat weapons you are going to give your opponent something else to worry about. They bunch up you can hit them hard with templates, they spread out you will slaughter them with rapid fire from more than one unit.

Reach out my brother and touch them with the holy flashlight of the emperor.

[Rolling Thunder]

And don't fail to include the holy meltagun, the saintly plasmagun, the sacred grenade launcher, the purifying flamer, the unearthly autocannon and the eccleastical demolisher cannon.

[Deleted]

Crikey ... was that your entire reportoire of regiliously based reference RT?

Gunlines are basic anyway, they not something to rely on... nice suggestion staff serg - I'll use that.

[Rolling Thunder]

No......

The sanctified missile launcher, the pious bolter (heavy), the heavenly battlecannon, the epiphanarial lascannon, the wrathful (well, its not religous per se but its hard to find a god who isn't wrathful) mortar, the ephermeal stubber (heavy), the enlightened powerfist...

Want me to continue?

[ssgtdude (M.I.A)]

In evaluating some of the proposed rumors on the up coming new edition I do have to say that since they removed the kill points guard are actually looking better and better. While a static gunline is not a viable option since many of the missions will be objective base we do have the numbers to be able to control these objectives.

Case in point.

The average 1850 game will have approx 50-75 infantry that are basic troop choices.

Our opponents will only manage 20-30 basic infantry choices. On the objective missions we have to know which our the troop choices of our enemy and concentrate fire on those that have the chance of capturing an objective. Then it is just a matter of positioning ourselves so that we can hold at least one of them.

With the mobile pillbox, and armored terrain that we have available this is going to be much easier as we will be able to position ourselves so that we have better choices at firing lines, heavier weapons that can take out these troops and more shots coming in than they have.

THis is where the tactics are going to change and come more into play than in the past.

I think this is a failing in the rule at this time that only troop choices will be able to hold objectives.

[Rolling Thunder]

Yeah- though that can include grenadiers, but not hardened veteran and stormtroopers- but inquisitrial stormtroopers can hold points. Which would be a sizeable oversight, as veterans are basically purpose-built objective holders.

[sammy1979]

pure tosh this 5th nonsense. once again there are too many smurf players in the development teams upset @ watching there lovely models getting pie plated,

however the gun line can be viable i think?, if hold your reserves in chims (i think AF are still inf arn't thet under this blasted 5th nonsense?) pound the crap out of them with artillary so they have to leave the objectives or get blasted then tank rush the objectives in 2nd to last turn then disembark to secure objective?

only smurfs rons and ork do well (again) tau and elder will face similar problems to us, but tactics dont alter that much,
most other players still wont be able to resist assaulting the gun line,

as the duke of wellington said
"they came at us in the old way, and we saw them off in the old way) will still apply, once every one becomes bored of objective grabbing!

[ssgtdude (M.I.A)]

sammy I don't think it is a matter of anyone getting bored of objective grabbing, but for those who want to play the missions. With more than half of them being objective based we still need to be prepared for it.

I really don't think the development teams were that upset with the pie plating since (as rumor has it) we are moving to the your hit or not rule and there will be no more partial hits (Partials will now be hits). Which translates to an increase of power for our template weapons.

Also watch out on that tank rushing. There is changes on the horizon for that as well. From what I am hearing some good some very bad.

[Deleted]

RT ... you missed the antidisestablishmentarianism flashlight.

On the wider part, until the new codex is released we're still trying desparately to cram a 3rd edition codex into the wrong game. Yes we can take loads of troops, simply max out, take light infantry and start your gunline on the objectives - It's still only 24" range.

Chances are that the codex will change significantly, perhaps with Roughrider as troops (after all Eldar guardians on jetbikes are troops) or better optioned armoured fists (which are pretty lame at the moment) - otherwise its back to employing grenadiers in chimmies, mechanised infantry, drop troops or infiltration to fill the gap until we get a truly relevant and flexible codex.

[knight (M.I.A)]

Imho the gunline as valid tactical option already died with the 3rd edition rules. Just standing still and shooting doesn't get you anywhere with the 4th edition rules already. With the 5th edition they just make things more mobile. Warfare is no static thing in the real world for more than 70 years already. They just make things more realistic and a bit easier for CC related armies again to reach the opponents before getting shot in little pieces.
That is just my oppinion...

[cathedralsquares]

The fact that Guard aren't good in CC is rubbish. They're excellent in CC, you just have to have twice as many as the enemy. Guard specialize in battles of attrition, we can outlast nearly every army there is with sheer weight of numbers. Now moving platoons is easier. You can still keep the enemies out of charge range and your weapons are still as effective. Mobility is key now to keeping your army effective. Heavy wapons are the same for everyone, so you're not at a disadvantage there. If you insist on using the gunline work it differently. Instead of a nice long line of troops turn them into blck, take heavy weapons platoons or model your platoon blocks so the heavy weapon is on the side of each so you have over lapping fire lane. Place the first 3 platoon with wide spaces in between, place the remaining three 3'' behind those gaps with the heavy weapons in the front row. When the enemy is almost in charge range fall the first row back 6'' in a diagonal left or right (depending on location) leaving them open for the second row to open fire and continue to decimate them. Now the enemy is caught between the front row's remaining squads and three back row squads. Cut them to ribbons.

[Modissar Siegler]

Apr 28, 2008 8:45:52 GMT -5 @praetorean said:

a) friendly models give enemies 4+cover save, so heavy weapons much less effective

set up more effectively, use hills, and/or move

b) the run rule will help marine-like armies(though other armies like nids and eldar already had fleet of foot, so no biggie there)

most powerful CC units already have fleet of *insert word*, so run wont matter so much. But it will allow squads to run away from cc units faster.

c)much more casualties during cc due to EXTREME ld modifiers(if u lose the cc u get -x Ld, equal to difference of wounds caused, yay for -3/-4 Ld)

good, since massacre and consolidation are also reported to be removed, then the CC units will win the turn they charge, and then be stranded in the open within rapid fire range of half your gunline.

d)objective control much more important, deciding victor instead of just giving victory points

good, we can fit more squads of troops into our list than anyother army out there.

[knight (M.I.A)]

Actually I think that the 5th edition will be a real pain for all the small elitist armies, while armies like the guard will profit a lot of it.

I just have to find out how my mechanized CSM will be affected by it. I already fear the worst for them...

[Rolling Thunder]

When in doubt- rush with numbers and watch your enemy sob before his retinae are incinerated by flashlights.

[Deleted]

i think in the begining and especially in the end the only thing stopping the guard is crappy terrain. you can outnumber the opponent all you want if your crammed to the edges in your tiny deployment zone or your tripping over your self as you try to advance

[Rolling Thunder]

So, just play on larger boards. I myself will not play on anything smaller than 6' by 4', and even then it's very terrain heavy.

[Deleted]

we do. its the L shaped deployment zones that hamper me.

[Deleted]

Honestly, if my gunline is weakened in 5th, I've already tried to shape up plans of a new infantry arrangement. It mostly involves breaking the HW teams off, placing them at the rear and more anti-personal toward the center. Tanks anchor one flank while hordes of grunts run to objectives and tarpit them. It will re-prioritize the way that I play, but I just have to specialize my squads rather then tailoring them to a very genric purpose (AT vs AP dilemma).

also if any rumors about the IG 5th codex is true, then the platoon special rule should be able to circumvent this problem. the downside will be many fewer command squads tailored out. You will need them to survive to give the rule. But, this is all rumor and we cant even play 5th for about another month or so. But in the meantime its fun to imagine!

[Deleted]

NAh gun line is pretty strong now. I played with the new 5th ed rule book and it is the most solid win i have gotten in awhile. Ratlings are amazing now for 11 points rending sniper rifles on a 6 and hitting on 3's. No more consolidating into combat. Vehicles getting a cover save. All blast and the like weapons scattering 2d6-BS so no more easy template drops on us. sure they get a 4+ cover but so do we as shooting thru friendly or foe units grants the cover save. Transports not causing auto pins when the unit deploys. No more being able to be destroyed with glancing hits. You know what it all sounds pretty damn good to me. Power fists weaker(no +1 attack for two weapons unless they pay for two fists) rending weaker(on to wound instead of hit and only +d3 pen instead of d6) all blast weapons are now all fulls, no more partials if it hits the base it counts as full. If you have any other concerns let me know and I can tell you the rules about it

O yea and only troop choices can claim objectives, all scoring units however can contest them. dedicated transports can carry anyone now, only restriction is that only the unit it is bought for can start the game in it. Flank walk will hurt us but our veterans, sentinels all that jazz can start on the flanks of the enemy, get those melta/plasma shots in to that pesky rear guard (all scouts and infiltrators can use it). And since it is a reserves move they can still charge and everything. Deep Strike is alot safer, if you land on a enemy only a 1/3 chance of dying.

[Deleted]

not to be rude or anything but can you cite your sources? just to make sure.