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Post by ssgtdude (M.I.A) on Mar 22, 2008 20:45:37 GMT -5
The commissar would not have run. He would have shot the Master Vox operator and stayed.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2008 23:02:06 GMT -5
also, I'm pretty sure that the Commissar's +1 to the Officers leadership does not work through the Vox network. It only applies to the unit he is attached to.
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angelusmortis
Captain
Courage is resistance to fear, mastery of fear - not absence of fear. -Mark Twain
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Post by angelusmortis on Mar 22, 2008 23:29:18 GMT -5
also, I'm pretty sure that the Commissar's +1 to the Officers leadership does not work through the Vox network. It only applies to the unit he is attached to. Thats correct. It only works on the squad hes attached to. That being said, if there is an Officer or a Sergeant in the squad, he gets popped. Then the squad fights under the leadership of the Commissar, which means they follow normal morale from that point on using the Commissars Ld. Now, from then on, summary execution no longer applies to that squad, as it only can be used on an Officer or a Sergeant in charge of the squad, but there isnt one any longer. The Commissar is in charge.
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Post by The Refined Gentleman (M.I.A) on Mar 23, 2008 0:58:31 GMT -5
come comrades! we must hunt down this traitor, wherever he may be!
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Post by ssgtdude (M.I.A) on Mar 23, 2008 1:12:42 GMT -5
Again a mis conception. Read the FAQ. If a commissar is attached to a unit without a officer he caps the back of some poor saps head who is in the unit. Not his own and he does not run from a battle unless the entire squad is dead around him and there is no one to shoot. Starting with the Squad leader and working his way down the line until he is the only one left.
It is why the Commissar in a conscript platoon makes such a fine tar pit. They fail the leadership roll he caps one. The conscripts fight harder so that they don't get capped.
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Post by Turtleboy(AWOL) on Mar 23, 2008 3:09:48 GMT -5
boy that sounds like a nasty rocket attack I hate it when all my super fluffy cool dudes just go splat and get hucked back in the foam tray so to paraphrase all these fine posts which have correctly brought the rules for commissars to bear: commissars add +1 leadership to the squad they're apart of when that squad is taking a leadership test >for itself.< if there's an officer with the 'leadership' special rule (aka the leadership bubble) then the commissar's +1Ld is conveyed to any of those squads that use the officer's leadership to test off of (but the officer is not shot if one of the nearby squads fails it's morale). if an officer is shot, the vox in the squad is >no longer usable.< a vox requires an 'officer' model to operate it. if the squad continues to fail leadership checks, a model at random is summarily executed and the squad is then considered to have passed the Ld check. hope this helps
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Post by knight (M.I.A) on Mar 23, 2008 3:43:46 GMT -5
We had the vox-commissar discussion for about 8 times so far and 2 of them ended with calling GW and getting the answer that the whole army can get Ld10 with a master vox. Just one other thing is the problem. If the officer is dead, the vox network is useless. A commissar is no officer and can't therefore use the vox network. Also the commissar can only run if all from the squad are dead. Otherwise he'll just kill a normal soldier which makes a 50 men conscript platoon with an independent commissar such a nice unit to stop the Nightbringer...
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Post by Turtleboy(AWOL) on Mar 23, 2008 4:04:59 GMT -5
We had the vox-commissar discussion for about 8 times so far and 2 of them ended with calling GW and getting the answer that the whole army can get Ld10 with a master vox. well cool that solves that!
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Post by ssgtdude (M.I.A) on Mar 23, 2008 5:16:51 GMT -5
Beg to differ on the Commissar not being an officer since they are able to have access to Officer only items in the Armory, and are an HQ choice that doesn't take an HQ slot. Commissar are in fact a political Official which gives them civilian title as an officer. Real world examples: French Police rank just below Chief, French Military rank equivalent of Major.
A Commissar is definately an officer.
Edit: The Commissar's authority to remove an officer and assume command also indicates the title of officer. I also point to Gaunt who was given commands, Yarrick another notable commissar given command. A command can only be held by an Officer and with the ability of the Commissar to execute any soldier up to the rank of Lord Marshal without anyone batting an eye can only lead you to the conclusion that they are able to command at that rank. Again, a commissar is most definitely an officer.
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Post by Turtleboy(AWOL) on Mar 23, 2008 6:03:07 GMT -5
Heroic Senior Officer. Senior Officer. Junior Officer. "A command squad consists of one Officer, chosen from the list above etc." "The Officer's points cost include the basic cost of his staff." "Officers carry a laspistol and close combat weapon...." "The Officer is an independent character..." "All Officers have access to the Imperial Guard Armory." "A command squad and it's Officer may be mounted in a chimera..." "Any Imperial Guard unit within 12" of the Officer may use his leadership..."
that's an officer, it's pretty clear.
here's the commissar:
"Commissars have access tot he Imperial Guard Armory and may select "Officer only" items." "If the Officer they're attached to has a transport chimera..." "If a unit with a Commissar fails a Morale check for any reason, the Commissar will summarily exectue the Officer or Sergeant leading the squad." (by your definition he will off the Officer, then off himself, leaving the rest of the squad scratching their heads because he has become 'the officer leading the squad after killing the normal officer...and that's just wrong).
"The presence of a Commissar in a unit will therefore add +1 to the Leadership of the Officer or sergeant commanding the unit for tests affecting the unit" (does the commissars leadership go up to 11 when he executes the officer? no. therefore he is not an officer).
seems pretty clear here that a commissar is >not< an officer.
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Post by ssgtdude (M.I.A) on Mar 23, 2008 6:44:49 GMT -5
First off Turtle you are comparing what I made statement to drastically different things.
First off I never said that a commissar would increase his own leadership. I also in previous entries made clear that it was known that the Commissar would off someone in the squad and not himself.
The Commissar is an officer by definition, from where you purchase him, as well as what his role is. Not to mention when knight brought up that it was asked by GW what happened they gave the answer of "that the whole army can get Ld10 with a master vox." By nature if the Master Vox needs an officer to operate it and the entire army is now getting the 10 ld the commissar must therefore be an officer, or mighty persuasive with that las-pistol to make a Master Vox work in that fashion according to GW.
Evidence is in as I made comment the commissar is in fact an officer.
By my definition he will off the officer, then he will off the next person in line and will never shoot himself and only flee from combat if he is the only person left because like good imp guard the entire squad is dead at his feet and there is no one left to shoot.
edit: In fact the commissar is a character by definition of page 50 and becomes an IC if you purchase the independent commissar doctrine. Otherwise, he is a unit upgrade. Which, by nature of being an upgrade also makes him an officer since he can command the unit in the place of an officer up to and including lord Marshal.
Another real life comparison.. the president of the United States is the commander in chief of the military. He commands the military. He holds the highest rank. There is no one above him. He takes an oath of office. This is what makes him an officer. Commissar are also officials given a duty to command if the officer fails to do so. The only way they can do that is to have a rank in which allows them to do so.
Catachen have the "Oops sorry sir" rule. Stating that prior to game the commissar might very well have an "accident". By nature of this rule the commissar is referred to as "Sir" indicating his officer status since enlisted are not referred to as sir, but by rank only officers are referred to by such an affectionate term. By game definition, armory equipment available and role in the military the commissar is a rank within the military arm. Therefore an officer.
"A commissar holds the absolute right to administer justice both on and off the battle field." source: The immperial Infantryman's Uplifting Primer Damocles Gulf Edition Section four Other Ranks, Specialists & Abhumans page 22
Only an officer in the military is able to judge other military members. Commissar are officers. By GW's own definition a Commissar is his own rank. It is not an enlisted rank therefore he is and always has been an officer.
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angelusmortis
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Courage is resistance to fear, mastery of fear - not absence of fear. -Mark Twain
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Post by angelusmortis on Mar 23, 2008 7:08:29 GMT -5
Another real life comparison.. the president of the United States is the commander in chief of the military. He commands the military. He holds the highest rank. The President does not hold the highest rank. The CoJCS has the highest rank. The President is a civilian and by definition has no rank. The President is however, the highest authority of the military. Sounds like a technicality, but for legal purposes, an important one. The Constitution requires the leader of the military to be a civilian, not a uniformed officer. So, by definiton, the President is in no way an officer, although he holds the highest authority. Legalistic? Techinical? Yes. Blame our forefathers. Again, I agree with Turtle. EDIT: Just to clarify, by the definition of his power in the Constitution, he is an Officer, but by practice, he delegates.
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angelusmortis
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Courage is resistance to fear, mastery of fear - not absence of fear. -Mark Twain
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Post by angelusmortis on Mar 23, 2008 11:04:48 GMT -5
Please can you all tell me EXACTLY WHERE it says a Commissar executes a squaddie rather than a officer. I can't find it. They aren't saying "rather" than an officer. They are sayin once the Officer/Sergeant is already dead. Its from the FAQ on GWs website.
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Post by Commissar on Mar 23, 2008 12:29:35 GMT -5
Usually people go by the FAQ, its just fair play.
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Post by Turtleboy(AWOL) on Mar 23, 2008 13:46:36 GMT -5
sometimes I wonder if we're playing the same game ssgtdude. *sighs and rubs eyes* I'll call the rulesboyz on >both< the commissar issues we can't seem to agree on tomorrow just so we can settle all this stuff. for future reference, the forum must default to RAW (rules as written) as the 'correct' interpretation of rules as it is the universal standard by which we all play the game. if you want to use RAI (rules as intended) for your own homebrewed games then that's fine. if it said >once< that a commissar "is an officer" then I'd be a lot more likely to agree with you ssgtdude but the fact that it does NOT title a commissar as 'an officer' means that as far as RAW is concerned, he's not an officer. it's fine and dandy if he has this title or that or if in fluff your commissar is an officer (like the rare occurance of colonel-commissar gaunt, a commissar who actually holds a military officer commission) but the standard issue rules that we all discuss and adhere to as a default so that we're all on the same page must be firmly grounded in what is actually in the codex. in this conversation, I think we're talking about the "game term: officer" not whether the president of the US is an 'officer' so therefore our commissars must be too... again, I'll call the rulesboyz just so we can get an answer that can't be argued about and then we can move on
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Post by Turtleboy(AWOL) on Mar 23, 2008 13:47:30 GMT -5
Oh i see. So it's not even codexed. I wonder how long you could say its on the FAQ on the GW website! before someone goes, "it's not codexed, so no." I have the main rulebook FAQ and the IG codex FAQ printed out - I just stick em in my codex and head to a game when it comes time to battle.
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Post by ssgtdude (M.I.A) on Mar 23, 2008 13:58:05 GMT -5
Another real life comparison.. the president of the United States is the commander in chief of the military. He commands the military. He holds the highest rank. The President does not hold the highest rank. The CoJCS has the highest rank. The President is a civilian and by definition has no rank. The President is however, the highest authority of the military. Sounds like a technicality, but for legal purposes, an important one. The Constitution requires the leader of the military to be a civilian, not a uniformed officer. So, by definiton, the President is in no way an officer, although he holds the highest authority. Legalistic? Techinical? Yes. Blame our forefathers. Again, I agree with Turtle. EDIT: Just to clarify, by the definition of his power in the Constitution, he is an Officer, but by practice, he delegates. Nice argument regarding the president, but that does not answer the other evidence that I have submitted nor does it establish that there is a difference between a Commissioned officer and a Civilian Officer. Yes, your argument does come down to technicalities and not addressing the power imbued by such an officer. Regardless, of his being a civilian he is given the authority by Article II of the constitution. Having the power to lead, as well as being able to decommission an officer through his civil office still by definition makes him an officer. A civilian officer, but an officer non the less. By being an officer, even if it is a civilian officer that still qualifies as a post of authority, and in practice applied to the question using game terms he would be able to utilize a Master Vox. Ergo, a commissar is an officer and by definition imbued with the power to delegate, punish, and lead in the place of any commissioned officer that he decommissioned with a las pistol to the head. The Commissar holds a Rank above that of an enlisted soldier. In my book, and by GW's definition that makes the Commissar an officer. Edit: Outside of this was thinking of a new conversion. A Ratling Commissar.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2008 14:05:43 GMT -5
I'm still not sure that I agree that the Commissar's +1 to leadership works over the Vox Network.
Heres the reason; (From the Codex)
"The presence of a commissar in a unit will therefore add +1 to the leadership characteristic of the officer or sergeant commanding the unit for tests affecting the unit."
That seems pretty clear to me. If someone called GW and they said otherwise, it seems like either the Codex has a printing error or they are wrong.
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Post by Turtleboy(AWOL) on Mar 23, 2008 14:30:37 GMT -5
I agree bg10117, but rulesboyz ruling is law when it comes to disputes. I can have them take a look at it again, however, when I call them with the list of stuff that we need their ruling on tomorrow. ssgtdude: I'm gonna put your argument in a better light. I'm gonna 'strike thru' all the points of your argument that are not based on the game rules as presented in the 40k main rulebook and the imperial guard codex as that is the "code of laws" which you may "lawyer from." everything else is "overruled" and thrown out as it is not based within the code of laws that 40k operates by. Nice argument regarding the president, but that does not answer the other evidence that I have submitted nor does it establish that there is a difference between a Commissioned officer and a Civilian Officer. Yes, your argument does come down to technicalities and not addressing the power imbued by such an officer. Regardless, of his being a civilian he is given the authority by Article II of the constitution. Having the power to lead, as well as being able to decommission an officer through his civil office still by definition makes him an officer. A civilian officer, but an officer non the less.
By being an officer, even if it is a civilian officer that still qualifies as a post of authority, and in practice applied to the question using game terms he would be able to utilize a Master Vox. so you have just given no "evidence" why this "new rule" should be allowed in the game. continuing on... based on the fact that all your evidence has been thrown out for being not rules based, I would say this statement is a simple opinion that is not based on the 40k rules at all. actual evidence is stronger that he is NOT an officer (I'll post that evidence if you want but you can look at previous posts to see it). continuing on... that is a nice fluff sentence but has no bearing on the "case." it does not address whether he is or is not an officer. continuing... his rank is something other than officer as he is not referred to as an "Officer" anywhere in his armylist entry, where as the "Officers" from IG command squads are referred to as officers over half a dozen times in the codex entry. this is simple fact from the codex. A commissars rank is "undefined" as far as the codex is concerned, though I'm sure there is a rank you could dig up by referencing fluff, but that is not a rules term, it is a fluff term. these are two different things and fluff, for that reason is outside the "code of laws" allowed for evidence to be drawn from. continuing... so you have provided literally no legitimate game rule evidence to support your case. beyond that, GW nowhere defines a commissar as an officer in the rulebooks, period. see above.
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Post by Turtleboy(AWOL) on Mar 23, 2008 14:46:06 GMT -5
he's practicing for his law digree I think.
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Post by ssgtdude (M.I.A) on Mar 23, 2008 15:16:36 GMT -5
Prilla it is all good. Turtleboy and I are from my stand point friends and we respect each other. No inflamed tempers nor are we in any way shape or form dismissing one anyone as a git or any such .
Back to the evidence. Commissars are a HQ choice. As such and can take officer only weapons and equipment. Since you decided to take out other evidence you still had not addressed this aspect. By the codex law only officers may take officer equipment. IF then that is law and a Commissar is given access to this equipment then they are by default an Officer. If previous rulings have said that the Master Vox imbued the leadership to the squads with a vox then again knowing that a Master Vox only operates with an officer GW has once again defaulted the Commissar as an Officer.
The rules state that the Commissar will take over command of a squad if the officer fails a moral test. In order to have the power to command also indicates, by GW, that a Commissar is an Officer. By the "Oops, Sorry Sir." rule it states that the Catachen hate officers, especially those that are not theirs. Again, default to the Commissar being an Officer.
That is all without Fluff even though it still has a bearing on the case so to speak at hand.
Regarding the fluff evidence I would contest your dismissal of it as it is put out by GW and not a third party administratum. Being their world their fluff then the evidence submitted would in fact be valid circumstantial evidence to be presented and considered.
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Post by Turtleboy(AWOL) on Mar 23, 2008 15:57:29 GMT -5
Prilla it is all good. Turtleboy and I are from my stand point friends and we respect each other. No inflamed tempers nor are we in any way shape or form dismissing one anyone as a git or any such . totally. this doesn't make them officers. priests and sanctioned psykers are not officers but they are HQ choices. while they are allowed specifically to take "officer only weapons and equipment" from the Imperial Guard armory, it does not mean they are referred to as an "officer." this point has already been established. the only models referred to as "officers" are presented in the "command squad" portion of the HQ section in the codex. to paraphrase: though commissars are allowed to take officer only items from the armory, they are still not referred to as officers in their codex entry. correction. only officers and commissars. see above regarding commissars not being referred to as officers. see above. Ld10 is achieved thru a HSO with the +1 leadership bonus of the commissar. the fact that a HSO may provide his buffed leadership to any unit thru the master vox has nothing to do with the fact that a commissar is or is not an officer. It is commonly accepted that when an officer dies, the vox network shuts down. the summary execution rule states that the commissar will execute the officer or sergeant - this means that the commissar executes the LEADER of the squad, who may or may not be an officer. since sergeants are given as an example of someone with "the power to command " and yet they are NOT officers, command of a unit does NOT imply officer status. I don't have the catachan codex but it is not the current codex. the current IG codex has published plenty of rules to replace the catachan codex and it is commonly assumed that it's GW's intent that the current IG codex replace codex: catachan or whatever it's called. fluff is not "game rules." therefore it cannot be used to support/oppose game rule conversations. if we allowed fluff as "evidence" then it could be argued that space marines have a 1+ armor save vs. lasweapons and that they have a sixth sense that allows them to dodge bullets so they should get a 4+...no 3+ invulnerable save vs. non-blast weapons (hey I read it in a space wolf book!). you can see why fluff is not in the same category as game rules. alright, I've got to go have an easter, but I'm pretty sure we just lost 90% of the people reading this thread simply due to rules lawyering is unpopular in 40k and is a great way to NOT have anyone to play with. do I need to call the GW ruleboyz and ask them about this one too to get you an official ruling? we're gonna need to come to some agreement about these kinda things because I really do NOT want to have to call the ruleboyz every time there is a rule dispute.
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Post by ssgtdude (M.I.A) on Mar 23, 2008 16:36:38 GMT -5
Let's get teh rules from the Boyz on is a commissar an Officer? What is considered an Infantry Squad per the adviser rule?
I think this will totally answer the questions raised.
Hope your Easter is a good one. I have to run out for work myself and then off to get some ham dinner.
Edit: Funny you bring up the space Marine part. GW did publish the movie marine rules in a WD. It is a funny read and I would box anyone about the ears if they tried to bring a force of them into a game.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2008 17:47:52 GMT -5
I think if you compare the Command Squad and Commissar entries in the IG codex its pretty clear that Commissars are not officers.
My evidence for this conclusion:
- In the command squad entry, the HSO, SO, and JO are all collectively described as officers. Nowhere in the entry is it stated that they may take "officer only" items from the Armory, as it is already implied that they are officers and therefore have access to the officer section of the armory.
- In the Commissar entry, it is specifically noted that they have access to "Officer only items" but, so do Hardened Veteran Veteran Sergeants, and I believe another of other upgraded squad leaders in the IG codex which clearly are not officers.
Basically, the only evidence I see in the codex to suggest that a Commissar is an officer is his access to the Officers Only section of the armory, however - seeing as how this is not exclusive to him, and some other units which clearly are not officers share this access to the officers only items section of the armory, I don't think that this shows whether or not he is an officer.
That being said, the fact that the Commissar entry goes out of its way to state that the Commissar has the option of selecting Officer Only wargear, implies that he is not an officer, as this unique distinction is more inline with that of a Veteran Sergeants access to the armory than an actual officers implied access to it.
When it comes to a Commissar using a Vox-Caster - I'm not really sure one way or another. The commissar clearly isn't an Officer - but, he does assume command of the unit he takes over after executing the cowardly officer...does that make him a sort of de facto officer capable of utilizing the vox network? The rules don't seem to say much about this one way or another.
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Post by ssgtdude (M.I.A) on Mar 23, 2008 22:14:54 GMT -5
And people wonder why there is so many rule discussions. WIth rules written in black and white. Too bad the editor uses a black highlighter.
I swear there is someone in GW whose sole job is to go over the rules and make them as ambiguous as possible. "Hmmm nope too easily understood re-word this to cause confusion. We need our entertainment."
If the rules were clearly written GW wouldn't have to dumb down the game to promote more players. Seriously, the rules are not written clearly and I suspect it is on purpose.
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