apocalypse question

[ssgtdude (M.I.A)]

Ok, after the game today a few of us were talking and I thought of a question dealing with an IC commissar.

What would happen (not fluff wise) if an Independent Commissar joined a marine squad during the game.

#1 could the Commissar join or is he limited to the army he was purchased with?
#2 Would a Marine be executed if they failed a morale test
#3 If #2 is yes, would the other marines in turn execute the Commissar?

My view is this.
All the forces in an apocalypse game are allied, and the Commissar is an IC under the IC rules. I do not see where it says anything about him being limited to that army and with the force set up with Apocalypse the entire force on one side is considered a single army. Not to mention the special rules and rules that are waived during apocalypse ( Carnifex riding in Land raiders) with the force org chart being dropped. From a RAW I see nothing to support that a Commissar could not do this. So the answers that I am seeing is
#1 yes
#2 Yes
#3 No, but he better not go to sleep around them.

[Turtleboy(AWOL)]

ssgtdude said:

What would happen (not fluff wise) if an Independent Commissar joined a marine squad during the game.

the rules make no mention that a commissar cannot join a squad from another army - so technically if you had an inquisitor lord, the commissar could join his squad and would execute the inquisitor lord if he chose to fail a morale check.

#1 could the Commissar join or is he limited to the army he was purchased with?

technically yes, though I'm pretty sure that the IG codex wasn't designed to be used in apocolypse games at the time of it's writing - that's why apocolypse games are friendly events and not tournament class things.

#2 Would a Marine be executed if they failed a morale test

yep the marine would be executed. the commissar retains his special rules and abilities regardless of the unit he's with.

#3 If #2 is yes, would the other marines in turn execute the Commissar?

no. there's no rules anywhere in any book regarding commissars being executed for using the summary execution special ability they have.

[angelusmortis]

My question is though, why would you put a Commissar with a Marine squad when they are just going to regroup automatically after they fallback anyways? There really isnt much tactical advantage to keeping them standing there with one less marine over having them fall back to a safer spot with one more marine.

[Deleted]

From reading the fluff books, the SMurfs would be unlikely to accept the authority of a merely human commissar. It would be like a Russian elite force sniper crew being overruled by a commissar in WW2 Vladivostok - both group would treat each other with wary repect as the snipers would be fully aware of the commissars remit, but the commissar (and the snipers) would be aware that the snipers are infinitely more valuable than the commissar to command and therefore "Master Sniper Sergeant Vassilli with multiple kills was shot by a commissar" wouldn't go down well.

Additionally, the authority of the SMurf's as elite forces super soldiers would be such that if they say they MUST retreat strategically, they must. This isn't just a bunch of Guardsmen panicking, or a Junior Officer fluffing up, this is the fearless SMurfs.

I think while the rules do not technically outlaw its use, a commissar is much more likely to let it slide (after all its not his responsibility, or a command structure he's part of), plus its not a particularly useful rule when applied to SMurfs as the buggers hardly ever retreat anyway!

Plus it would go down like this:

Sergeant Hard Bastard Three Lungs: "Let's move back men!"
Commissar Knobhead: "No RETREAT!!!"
Sergeant Hard Bastard Three Lungs: "eh? Boys lets go!"
Commissar Knobhead: "In the name of the Emporer, I execute this coward!"

+++ Commissar Knobhead shoots Sergeant Hard Bastard Three Lungs in the head with his laspistol +++

Sergeant Hard Bastard Three Lungs: "Ow ... quit it ... grrr get off you fool, that tickles...!"
Commissar Knobhead: "Dieeeee coward .... DiEiEIEeeeeeeeee..... why won't you just die?"
Sergeant Hard Bastard Three Lungs: "Because I'm a rock hard underpriced supersoldier wearing Tactical Dreadnought armour that worth more than your entire regiments life insurance policies and the ship they came in."
Commissar Knobhead: "Oh yeah, I forgot. Can we just let this go, I'm a bit...."
+++ Stataco burst of bolter fire, muffled crumps and fleshy noises. Followed by repeated thumping of powerfist pulverising a sack of potatoes +++
Sergeant Hard Bastard Three Lungs: "Yeah, bits .... men, anyone seen Commissar Knobhead?"
Space Marines: "No sir!"
Sergeant Hard Bastard Three Lungs: "Good, lets move back..."
Corporal Black Carapace Two Hearts: "You realise he costs 40 points..."
Sergeant Hard Bastard Three Lungs: "He cost's you and I combined ... man what a waste!"

[Rolling Thunder]

More like this:

Beakie: Aaargh, there is no glory to be had here in this bloody but otherwise vital trench battle !!! Fleee!

Commissar evil eye: On charges of:
Cowardice
Stupidity
Being utterly useless against the superior firepower of the guard
Being an utter waste of space
Being really shiny

You are sentanced to death.

*Blows off marine sergent's head with bolt pistol. Rest of marines raise collective bolters. Rest of guardsmen raise 15000 lasguns, 1500 special AP1 or 1 weapons and 1000 autocannons. Marines lower bolters.*

Remember space marine. You may have your bolters. You may have your bravado. You may have your shiny 3+ armour save. But I have the Imperial guard, AND THERES A LOT MORE OF THEM THAN THERE ARE OF YOU.

[ssgtdude (M.I.A)]

angelusmortis said:

My question is though, why would you put a Commissar with a Marine squad when they are just going to regroup automatically after they fallback anyways? There really isnt much tactical advantage to keeping them standing there with one less marine over having them fall back to a safer spot with one more marine.

The only tactical advantage I can see is just one more power fist, and a refractor shield. albeit a weaker power fist a power fist all the same.

If I were to do this I would probably only use Yarricka, or Colonel Isabella Gaunt as neither of them execute for fall backs. Their experience in the battle field do understand that you have to make a strategic relocation of your troops from time to time.


I do like the fluff stories others are using. to illustrate the point. I also believe that if a commissar were to execute a marine he better sleep with an eye open as it is the final time they will sleep.

[Deleted]

BUT it still stands that for 40pts you could still get a couple of SMURFs. Oh sorry yeah this is apocalpyse - where you can bring evey model you ever owned, the kitchen sink and your baby daughter dressed as a titan - stomp stomp mash mash yum yum.

[Deleted]

As for the "one eye open" issue. I don't think he'd even get the chance. A Smurf would accidentally stp on him/fall on him/lean on him/sneeze on him (poisonous/venomous/acid spit yeah?) and the poor weedy human would die - poor boy!

[angelusmortis]

suneokun said:

As for the "one eye open" issue. I don't think he'd even get the chance. A Smurf would accidentally stp on him/fall on him/lean on him/sneeze on him (poisonous/venomous/acid spit yeah?) and the poor weedy human would die - poor boy!

I was thinking more along the lines of the Commissar would shoot the Marine in the head, then the Marine would turn around and say "Awe, now why did you have to go and do that for?" then procede to make a high school anatomy experiment out of the Commissar.

Regardless, I still dont see the advantage of doing so when they can just fall back and regroup normally. Besides, if it happens on his turn, you get to assault the next and will get an extra attack per marine in the squad (including the one you would of shot). I just think it would be both unfluffy and of little tactical value (not enough to make a differnce).

[knight (M.I.A)]

Fluff-wise its totally inacceptable. Neither Inquisitors nor Marines would let a commissar tell them what to do.

The Inquistion reports directly to the Emperor and is over all other authorities in the Imperium. Only the Ordo Heraeticus is higher than Ordo Malleus and Ordo Xenos, since they have the right to judge over other other Inquisitors.
The Marines are independent from all authorities and only report to the Emperor as well, not even the Inquisition may command them, they may only ask for assistence from the Marines. If they need Marines at all cost and no chapter wants to help them, they still have the Grey Knights from the Ordo Malleus.
The Adeptus Munitiorum (who are responsible for commissars) are far below the inqusition and therefore can't boss Inquisitors around and is in another branch than the marines.

The tactical advantage is really doubtful if not, not existent. Instead of sending a weak and frail commissar into a squad of marines it would be more usefull to have a marine commander with powerfist join them, if you're just after the PF...

[angelusmortis]

knight said:

The Inquistion reports directly to the Emperor and is over all other authorities in the Imperium. Only the Ordo Heraeticus is higher than Ordo Malleus and Ordo Xenos, since they have the right to judge over other other Inquisitors.

Well, thats not entirely true. If it involved Chaos taint, a Malleus Inquisitor could judge a Herectus one. If it involved Xenos, then the Xenos could (I forget their names, but those aliens in the fluff that control people like a puppet come to mind). So IMHO, and not trying to get off subject here, but I think each of the Ordos have equal authority, they just specialize in one form of taint.