Ursarkar E. Creed and Kell

[Deleted]

I was wondering what the consensus (if there is one) is about Ursarkar E. Creed being considered an Officer (and being able to give his leadership to squads 12" around him.) His rules do NOT explicitly say he is an Officer, but:

He has Iron Discipline, an ability possessed only by Officers.
He is the supreme commander of all Cadian forces (this is just a fluff reason, though)
Kell is said to have all the priviledges of being an Officer, including the Command special rule (which is not the Leadership rule, but I assume it is implied that it is) and can therefore project his leadership of 8 (with reroll) for 12" too.

However, neither of these are stated explicitly and require interpretation. I have emailed GW, and they said that Creed is an Officer for these purposes, but Kell is not, which is confusing as it seems equally strange.

What are some arguments you've used to justify Creed being an Officer? The only reason I bought them was to use them to boost my leadership bubbles, aside from that they're pretty worthless I feel.

[ssgtdude (M.I.A)]

I was always under the belief that Creed was an officer. Isn't his official title Lord Marshall? If so that is one of the ranks within the officer corp of the Cadian military.

[knight (M.I.A)]

His rank is Lord Castellan and he is the highest military authority on Cadia right now. The title is either given for life time or until the dangerous time is over. In his case I think its for lifetime, since the 13th Black Crusade is long over already...

[Deleted]

The issue at hand here is not the fluff but rather the rules behind using the miniature. I obviously want to take advantage of their ability to provide leadership bubbles, and am wondering what the opinions here are of that particular aspect of Ursarkar E. Creed and Jarran Kell.

[Turtleboy(AWOL)]

as far as the rules as written go, the only actual officer is kell there is nothing in creed's profile that mentions anything about him having officer status which is totally dumb.

I would honestly just say that you talked with the GW rulesboyz (which you did) and they said he's considered an officer though if they wanted to dispute it you would be fine just tossing a die to resolve it.

[Deleted]

Don't all officers have the leadership ability?

[Turtleboy(AWOL)]

that's the thing - the codex don't call him an officer and it don't say he has the 'leadership' special rule either

[Deleted]

So what do we think could be used as legitimate arguments to back up the idea that he is an Officer? I mean, I feel it is implied by practically everything, but I am afraid of RAW-fascists giving me a hard time. Even the reassurance that Kell is an Officer seems to imply him being one too.

[Turtleboy(AWOL)]

there is no argument for creed being an officer unfortunately. if someone contests it you basically have this argument to use:

"I called the GW rulesboyz and they said he's an officer, shall we dice off on the matter?"

that's really all you can do since him being an officer is honestly absolutely nowhere in his rules (which is either by design or a really bad oversight)

[Deleted]

I can't imagine it being by design, I mean they're over 100 points for toughness 3 models, one of which doesn't even have a power weapon. I think it is just really shoddy proof-reading on behalf of GW editors. I can't imagine why else you'd take these characters if not for their LD benefits. There is a case to be made that Kell is an Officer (i.e. it says he is, and LD 8 on a re-roll, due to his banner) is better than LD 10 anyways. I might attach Creed to a squad of conscripts and use his leadership that way. I guess you can pick the table edge too - but that again is hardly worth 125 points and your other HQ choice.

[knight (M.I.A)]

Creed allows you to pick the mission played. Ever thought that no stupid NCO could manage to have that great tactical genius and get free hand by his commanding officer? Doesn't have Creed the Iron Discipline Rule as well, effectively making him an officer as this is a requirement to use it?

Cadian315 you can't seperate Kell and Creed. They always have to stick together within 2"

[Turtleboy(AWOL)]

cadian315 said:

I can't imagine it being by design, I mean they're over 100 points for toughness 3 models, one of which doesn't even have a power weapon. I think it is just really shoddy proof-reading on behalf of GW editors. I can't imagine why else you'd take these characters if not for their LD benefits.

I'm sure I'm not alone in thinking "hmm...add a commissar and my whole army is Ld11(!!!) PLUS I get to pick the mission or get a reroll if I want it on the first turn roll, plus I get a regimental standard thrown in on an officer with powerfist AND powersword who can't be instakilled who can also switch places with creed...all for a little over 100pts.

yeahno that's just too good for the points in my humble opinion.

I can see it being by design that creed isn't an "officer" Ld11 imperial guard would be worth 100pts alone in my opinion.

[ssgtdude (M.I.A)]

Tb isn't there a rule that states no stat can be over ten?

[Deleted]

He can't be leadership ten. What I am wanting to develop an interpretation for is that he is a LD 10 model who projects his leadership 12" and Kell is a LD 8 model who projects his leadership 12" as well. Beyond that I couldn't really care what their stats are, haha. I'm pretty sure they're both ICs too, and so can be separated but Kell's bodyguard special rule only applies if they're within 2".

[Turtleboy(AWOL)]

ssgtdude said:

Tb isn't there a rule that states no stat can be over ten?

no clue

cadian315 said:

He can't be leadership ten.

why not? *confused*

What I am wanting to develop an interpretation for is that he is a LD 10 model who projects his leadership 12" and Kell is a LD 8 model who projects his leadership 12" as well.

by the RAW in the book, creed is not capable of projecting his leadership and isn't even considered an "officer." due to total lack of acknowledgement/titling of him in any way shape or form in that regard.

if the rulesboyz said different I'd like to know what info they based it off of

[knight (M.I.A)]

Yes there is a rule that no stat can go over 10.
Look it up in the tactica commissars on the GW page. There they state how the great Field Marshal Solar Macharius was executed by an commissar despite having Ld 10 and a reroll...

[fatuous]

No stat can be above 10, can't remember exactly where it is, but is in the rule book.

This is a weird situation, as there isn't anywhere that actually states he is an officer. However the Iron Disicpline is officer only, which would imply that he is an officer, and that is what I would argue for him being an officer (and having the leadership special rule) if I was going to use him.

If your opponent chooses to, they could argue that it isn't in the rules, which should lead to a dice off. Best of a bad situation I guess. I would certainly discuss it with your opponents before the situation comes up in game.

[ssgtdude (M.I.A)]

I'd also would argue the title in his name since that is an officer rank in the guard.


Can't remember the fluff too well, but I believe he was given a field commission as well.

[Deleted]

I'll post the contents of the email they sent back to me.

Hi ------,
Yes, Creed is considered an Officer in the rules. Kell does not, but he does count as being a standard bearer with the Regimental Standard. This is the only Regimental Standard that the army can have.

Hope that clears things up!

So hardly useful.

I think the Iron Discipline works as an effective argument , as part of its definition is not only that it is limited to Officers, but its bonuses only apply to those using his leadership for morale checks. It is surprising that they argue that Kell is NOT an officer, when it clearly states he is. I feel like a lawyer arguing such a minute but important technicality.

[Deleted]

Problem is by RAW and the fact that we have a current FAQ that has a special chars section in it and doesnt mention Creed or Kell we have to take the rules that are in the codex and and changes that are in the FAQ. Really it doesnt mattter what the "rules boyz" say because when push comes to shove they have the same amount of power for interpiting the rules as you or I do.

[fatuous]

I'd reply to the email they sent thanking them for clearing up the Creed bit but to confirm the bit about Kell, quoting what is in the Codex, see what they come back with. Probably that he (Kell) isn't an officer, but has the leadership special rules anyway.

[Deleted]

Yah, the problem is that their editing so terribly poor - it says he has the "Command" special rule - which I assume is the "Leadership" special rule of Officers. They just apparently don't proof-read, and some people might have a problem with stretching otherwise consistent logic like that, especially when it disadvantages them.