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Post by Mabus on Aug 9, 2008 5:20:35 GMT -5
Hello, I'm concidering starting a new army. I've decided that's is going to be a renegade/Traitor marine army.
I've read alot of backround and fluff on Chaos marines and I've decided that none of the existing Traitor Legion rules fit what I hope to achieve. I originally intended to collect a Slaneshi cult army but then I realised the tactics you would have to employ to use this army successfully don't suit my style. I'm not mad on their colour schemes and models either.
And so that's why I've decided to try something a little different. I'm not sure how many (if any) of you will be familiar with the backround for the Chaos God Malal. I would add a link to wikipedia where I found all the information concerning him but it appears that it was deleted for some unkown reason quite recently.
He is (was, he doesn't appear in GW backround anymore due to some dispute as to who owned the intellectual rights behind him) a renegade God. He apparantly represents the Paradox of Chaos fighting itself. He is the strongest of all the Gods but was forced into exile by the other gods because they feared and loathed him. He apparently despised the other gods and did everything in his power to try and destroy them and foil their plans. It is said that he does not have very many followers but those he does have are the most devoted and strongest followers of Chaos. His icon is apparently a Horned scull with a vertical stripe down the middle. one side is black, the other is white.
The only Traitor Chapter which GW implies worships Malal is "The sons of Malice". They apparently reside in the eye of Terror and wage war against the Imperium and other Chaos worshippers. They also wear the distinctive balck and white heraldry which mark them out as Malal worshippers.
I am going to invent my own Traitor Chapter, haven't decide what they'll be called yet but I have a Colour sceme in mind..
Here's my question: What Codex should I use? The Chaos one is the obvious choice although the loyalist Space marine Codex makes more sense to me. What do you guys think I should do?
Comments and advice will be appreciated.
Thanks guys!
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Post by The Refined Gentleman (M.I.A) on Aug 9, 2008 15:28:32 GMT -5
Use the chaos codex. They still have chaosy stuff.
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Post by knight (M.I.A) on Aug 10, 2008 14:52:29 GMT -5
Chaos
Unless you want them to lose access to all the chaotic stuff like Obliterators, Defilers, Demonweapons, Demons, etc.
And actually I don't see how the loyalist list would make sense for such an army...
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Post by Mabus on Aug 10, 2008 15:22:36 GMT -5
Well, I read a WD a while back and it advised players to use the Loyalist SM Codex units and rules to represent renegade Chapters which didn't worship Chaos or were newly renegaded armies.
Besides, my army's backround suggests that it is hell bent on killing other chaos warriors and cultists. Using the same rules as them doesn't make much sense to me. I don't intend on using any Tanks, Defilers, Demons, other Chaos-y stuff. I want my Chapter to resemble a Loyalist one to a certain extent. I'd obviously have to avoid units like Chaplains though....
Anway, thanks for the advise guys, I appreciate do it.
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Post by knight (M.I.A) on Aug 10, 2008 16:00:17 GMT -5
/me points to the allies of the Imperium thread. If you want to hear suggestions about how to use loyalists, go there. And I really hope you didn't suspect to hear Codex: Space Marines in the CSM lair  And I actually never heard about Malal. Up to my knowledge the Sons of Malice are a Chaos Undivided renegade chapter. Marked as traitoris excummunicate after they ate their opponents during a victory celebration. Their base of operations and homeworld was a bit south west of the Eye of Terror. Now they're hiding inside the Eye of Terror. Their estimated strength isn't much more than that of a normal Space Marine chapter. If half of that background would be true, Abbadon, Angron, Fulgrim, Lorgar, Mortarion, Typhus, Ahriman, Magnus the Red, Perturabo, and many other might CSM warlords and leaders would have gathered their armies, just for hunting them down. But I actually think that the Sons of Malice even participated in the 13th Black Crusade. If this god has ever been part of the fluff, GW had most likely a good reason for taking them out. The CSM might be egoistic, but if they want to get rid of a threat, they join parties and get rid of that threat... And even some or perhaps companies of one former legion is still far bigger than a complete marine chapters of the loyalists can be... |
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Post by Mabus on Aug 10, 2008 16:33:06 GMT -5
No, Malal was removed from GW's fluff because there was legal debate as to who owned the intellectual rights behind him. This has happened loads of times before. There were originally dozens of Chaos Gods but most have been gotten rid of for the same reason. I belive if you read the Chaos supplements and armybooks in WHF released in the late eighties you'll find quite a bit about some of these gods. Most haven't been mentioned since 3rd Ed Warhammer Fantasy.
The sons of Malice were originally called the sons of Malal. This changed some time during 3rd Edition Warhammer 40,000.
And no, I didn't want tips on how to use my army. I was asking for advice from people which had more understanding than I in this aspect of the hobby.
Anyway, I appreciate the feedback you've given me. I hope you don't think I am trying to disrespect you for not immedietly accepting the advice you gave me.
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Post by Ymmot (M.I.A) on Aug 10, 2008 17:59:54 GMT -5
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_(Warhammer)yeah, its digging pretty deep there, the other Chaos Gods are so much more accessible, and they do not require a lengthy explaination to justify fielding them. go codex CSM I would use standard chaos marines with no deamons and no marks, unless you make your own and treat it as chaos undevided, maybe mix loyal marine with chaos marine models.
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Post by knight (M.I.A) on Aug 10, 2008 18:04:18 GMT -5
Absolutely not, and I honestly admit, that those parts of fluff were before my time.
I started with 40k at the late parts of the 3rd editionand fantasy after the 7th was released. But even if there wouldn't have been any troubles with intellectual property behind them, they would have been dropped or reduced to minor gods sooner or later. Chaos is built around the 4 big gods (Khorne, Slaanesh, Tzeentch, Nurgle) and it is mentioned (even in the old Codex: CSM that Tzeentch unites all four gods regularlly if there is a danger towards them all or just himself (he just manipulates the others long enough until he gets what he wants).
But honestly, I'd still go for CSM and not SM as choice. Obliterators are quite a common idea even for such an army. Also the support of minor demons of the god (and I'm sure he'd have demons). For fluff reasons the CSM are the better choice. Also the special rules seem to be better suited than the ones of the normal marines
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Post by Mabus on Aug 11, 2008 5:19:26 GMT -5
Okay guys, thanks again. You've pursuaded me. I'll use the CSM Codex. When (if, I've yet to decide) I start this army, I'll post plenty of pictures.
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Post by knight (M.I.A) on Aug 11, 2008 7:02:28 GMT -5
I found a bit of fluff for Malal (he disappeared in 1987 from Warhammer, well I was 2 at that time...)
Malal is the god or revenge and self-destruction. All the chaos gods are his ancient enemies, including himself. His followers are loners and expelled ones.
Colour scheme is white and black (halfed). His champions are called "Damned" and are quite mighty loners who fight the followers of the other gods and followers of Malal.
It is nowhere said in that source that they're stronger than followers of the other gods.
PS: I can post the link to that source, but its in German and wouldn't really help you much
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Post by Mabus on Aug 12, 2008 5:06:21 GMT -5
I got my info from Wikipedia. In an article that has now been conveniantly deleted. Coincidentially by a German fellow. I see a connection forming here!
I'll see what I can do to source more information.....
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Post by knight (M.I.A) on Aug 12, 2008 5:51:07 GMT -5
It wasn't me So forget your pattern again |
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Post by Mabus on Aug 12, 2008 6:26:06 GMT -5
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Post by Ymmot (M.I.A) on Aug 12, 2008 15:09:46 GMT -5
how is he supposed to be a deamon of Malal?
that picture is off the forgeworld website, and it is freakin' bad ass by the way, I love that color scheme.
those other two pictures are great as well, something along the lines of the sons of malice would make a great chaosy project, use what ever fluff you want, heck, you could tell me they worshipped the chaos god of flowers and puppy dogs and I would still agree to play a game with you!
I'd bring my inquisitor lord, he hates flowers and puppy dogs.
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Post by Mabus on Aug 13, 2008 15:37:10 GMT -5
LOL, I'm still trying to find a bit more about the sons of Malice.
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Post by knight (M.I.A) on Aug 13, 2008 20:31:31 GMT -5
There was a huge report in one of the WDs. I think that should have been the issue with Abhuman doctrines.
It was centered on the Renegade Marines. Especially the Red Corsairs and Sons of Malice. And a good alternative for looking for info might be the lexicanum
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Post by Mabus on Aug 14, 2008 8:26:12 GMT -5
Yeah, I've go that WD.
I'll check the Lexicanum, thanks for the advice.
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