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Post by knight (M.I.A) on Aug 10, 2009 17:37:50 GMT -5
Afaik Force Weapons always kill eternal warriors as they don't instant kill but simply take away all remaining wounds.
And playing a pure GK army is a pain as you have to deal with being horribly outnumbered every time. The only enemy who wouldn't outnumber you as a GK are most likely pure Death Guard and Thousand Sons armies. But those would be a pain to face as well thanks to their special rules. Thousand Sons would most likely be the easier option to face for GK. As Death Guard would just match GK in a shooting battle and being more resilent while in CC they'd still "Feel No Pain" and the GKs wounding on a 3+
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Post by Kaikelx on Aug 10, 2009 18:08:52 GMT -5
More importantly, am I the only one who rolls their eyes seeing a Marine with heavy bolter charging an Ork sluggaboy squad? Even more importantly, am I the only who is screaming why the hell are they charging out of a perfectly good defensive position, that was reinforced by a dreadnaught, to attack up-hill against Orks, would have the advantage in many ways. To plant a flag on a hill... Other than that though, I loved the rest of it.
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Post by The Envoy (AWOL) on Aug 10, 2009 18:09:44 GMT -5
I reiterate my statement.
"Not in the least."
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Post by terminus on Aug 10, 2009 23:50:03 GMT -5
His suggestion is for GK lists. Frankly, I don't think you understand how out-numbered a pure GK force is. So, what's your strategy for Grey Knights? Since it's so crap, you should be able to think of something better. So why don't you leave an alternative GK tactica? I understand it just fine, and I'm not disputing that Land Raider spam is the only way Daemonhunters can be competitive. It just doesn't take a genius to figure out that transports are uber in 5th edition, high AV is even more uber, and therefore if your only option for transports happen to also be high AV, you take as many as possible. It just irritates me that his tactica is hailed as the be-all end-all of Grey Knight tactics, when it starts off with a recommendation to cheat, proceeds to berate all other styles of play other than reactive, and then offers up the most rudimentary strategy.
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Post by knight (M.I.A) on Aug 11, 2009 11:08:51 GMT -5
I have found no place so far where he recommends to cheat. Just using the rules as they're given and that is hardly cheating. It is his oppinion that everything but reactive playstyle is bad. If you don't like his oppinion don't read it. And when you read everything, he later states that there are other GK strategies that are successful but are not his playing style
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Post by Kaikelx on Aug 11, 2009 17:49:30 GMT -5
Moving on.............
What tactics would you think would be best then, say, in a 500-750 point game, objectives, with a moderate amount of terrain?
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Post by terminus on Aug 12, 2009 15:18:39 GMT -5
Afaik Force Weapons always kill eternal warriors as they don't instant kill but simply take away all remaining wounds. The only force weapon that does that is the one in the Daemonhunters codex. All other force weapons have been updated to deal instant death. I have found no place so far where he recommends to cheat. Just using the rules as they're given and that is hardly cheating. It is his oppinion that everything but reactive playstyle is bad. If you don't like his oppinion don't read it. And when you read everything, he later states that there are other GK strategies that are successful but are not his playing style He tells you to measure beyond the range of your weapon when firing at targets, so you know exactly how far the opponent's models are. Measuring beyond your range is CHEATING.
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Post by Hetfiltrator on Aug 12, 2009 16:41:55 GMT -5
Before I clicked on the link, I thought to myself, "hmph! I bet I know a better one, whatever this isgoing to be!" And that's the song I was gonna suggest! Kai, you and me must have great minds, because obviously, great minds think alike! Look at 0:58 and you'll see why I posted the video Oh my goodness. I just started crying watching that.
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Post by Melissia on Aug 12, 2009 17:02:30 GMT -5
The only force weapon that does that is the one in the Daemonhunters codex. All other force weapons have been updated to deal instant death. Aaaand the force weapons in C:WH and the Eldar force weapon.
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Post by ElegaicRequiem on Aug 12, 2009 17:13:00 GMT -5
So eternal warrior is proof against all forms of instant death? Because it's not entirely clear: it says that a guy w/ eternal warrior is immune to the instant death rule, and makes no mention of anything other than wounds dealt by attacks that are twice his toughness or greater...
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Post by Melissia on Aug 12, 2009 21:44:15 GMT -5
All forms of Instant Death. But C:DH/C:WH and the Eldar force weapon (forgot its name...) don't cause Instant Death.
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Post by ElegaicRequiem on Aug 12, 2009 21:45:53 GMT -5
Yeah, anything that says, "Remove the victim from the table" is fantastic.
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Post by The Envoy (AWOL) on Aug 12, 2009 22:03:17 GMT -5
Like when you roll double 6's with a Shokk Attack Gun?
"Any unit underneath the template is removed from the game."
Good times...
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Post by Melissia on Aug 12, 2009 22:07:56 GMT -5
Yep. That ignores eternal warrior, too. You can wipe out a horde of daemons with that.
After all, it doesn't KILL them... it transfers them directly into the warp, which usually results in death.
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Post by The Envoy (AWOL) on Aug 12, 2009 22:11:29 GMT -5
It's also good fun when playing 'Crons. As it denies them a very large number of WBB rolls that could lead to Phase Out much sooner than intended.
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Post by terminus on Aug 13, 2009 6:41:05 GMT -5
The only force weapon that does that is the one in the Daemonhunters codex. All other force weapons have been updated to deal instant death. Aaaand the force weapons in C:WH and the Eldar force weapon. How often do you honestly see someone field a WH Inquisitor competitively? Even when they do, it's usually some Hammer of the Witches/that other Ld power shenanigans, and certainly not 40 points on a S3 character that will get utterly rocked by anything requiring a force weapon to bring down. The only force weapon out of the Ordos you will ever have a reasonable chance of seeing is the Nemesis Force Weapons of the Grandmaster, or maybe Captain Stern (but most would take a regular BC or the GM for the points). Eldar do not have force weapons, maybe that's why you're having trouble remembering the name? They have witchblades and singing spears, which don't work anything remotely like force weapons.
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Post by Melissia on Aug 13, 2009 7:49:10 GMT -5
Also, it was on one of the Eldar special characters. Ah, there it was, the Sword of Asur (unless I'm reading it wrong-- it doesn't have the Forge Weapon or Instant Death rule mentioned where I'm reading it anyway)-- A force weapon which isn't called a force weapon, and doesn't use the Force weapon rules, but functions the same (it removes the model from the game in one attack if the guy passes a leadership test after wounding).
Also, the fact that it is unused is irrelevant to the conversation, terminus. You gave a false statement, and I corrected you. Do not be upset about this.
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Post by terminus on Aug 13, 2009 21:23:20 GMT -5
Well, if we're arguing semantics, it was erroneous, not false. The proper statement would have been "The only force weapon that does that is the one in the Daemon/Witch-hunters codexes." And anyway, I think it is very relevant to the conversation. Someone may field a GK Grandmaster against you. You will never ever ever ever see an Inquisitor with a Force Weapon in any remotely competitive list.
The Sword of Asur (which is just a diresword that allows re-rolls to hit), functions very differently from what you describe. The model hit must make a Ld check for every unsaved wound, or dies automatically, which is a lot less reliable than simply making a check of your own (especially since most, if not all, eternal warriors are at least Ld9. But yes, it is another weapon that can knock out an Eternal Warrior, so I stand corrected on that point.
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Post by knight (M.I.A) on Aug 14, 2009 0:58:44 GMT -5
Ok Eternal Warrior helps as it got changed (I have only made 3 games with 5th edition so far, and yes there are people out there who have to work and can not play 40k all the time)
Edit as the old version did sound wrong: Of course you may not measure the complete distance between units and only up to your weapons range. But even when you know that when a shot is going to fail, measure distance for the weapons range. As you will then get a rough picture of how far they're away. So when you measure up to 24" you know if they're around 30" or 50" away. And I think that is what he wanted to say, but it slightly glitched like my first version
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