IG in CC vs SM's

[Woz]

Suprisingly IG aren't as bad in CC against SM's as it first seems and they'll last longer in CC then they would trying to slug it out at ranges under 24".

A SM with a bolter has a 44% chance of killing a guardsman because the guardsman has no save. Double that when in rapid fire range.

But in CC the guardsman gets a save and that Marines chance of killing a guardsman drops to 29%.

So 10 marines will kill on average 4-5 guardsmen when in bolter range (8-9 when in rapid fire range) in a round of shooting. But they'll only kill 3 Guardsmen in a round of CC.

A Guardsman on the other hand only has a 8% chance of killing a marine with his lasgun and in CC he still has a 8% chance so he doesn't lose anything buy being in CC.

Marines armed with CC weapons will kill about 6 guardsmen per round of combat.

So if you find yourself out on a limb don't be afraid to get stuck in.

[Goddess of Darkness]

But if you have only six in base to base doesn't that mean you have to take those 6 and end of combat...??

[Woz]

The rest are still in combat and why would you only have 6 BtB? And thats when you go up against Marines with CC weapons, normal marines will only kill 3 guardsmen per turn.

My point was that IG aren't as useless at CC against Marines as most people suspect.

[Goddess of Darkness]

Hmmm....6 was just an example number.....spare of the moment.

I think im confused bout this...i definately see your point about giving the marines a run for their money.

Forget i was ever here lol

[sammy1979]

thats a intresting concept however i genrally find that statistics are of little use when your squads are getting ripped apart by smurfs in CC though i dont disagree with your maths. how often does the dice roll all "threes for smurfs and all threes for IG" in CC and you get wiped. i would always fancy my chances in a shoot out at 12" purly because of the number of shots you can lob at them. close combat for me is really a last resort as non of your crew served or speciel weapons can be brought to bear. though i dont disagree that some times the dice go your way and you can fight and win in CC lets be realistic though the only thing worse in CC then IG are tau or snotts

[Deleted]

The math is great and so are statistics, unfortunately it doesn't help when you roll all 1's to hit( sorry some times we all get bad luck).I guess they could roll all ones too.I just like the thrill of not really knowing the percentages of how they will fare but what the dice gods will bless me with that day( offers up a prayer and a sacrafice of stale cheetos and flat coke to the dice gods)

[Deleted]

dang...44% to 29%...if i could only slug it across the board on foot...xcept fer assault squads which come to you in which u start a close order drill and bring ure full bayonets to bare! cos in the end...its all about the bayonet

[Woz]

trooper249 said:

cos in the end...its all about the bayonet

and a bit of guts behind the bayonet.

[fatuous]

People don't expect IG to assault, so you can wrong foot em quite often, and like u say, you'll actually get an armour save, and stop em rapid firing u if you assault them first. Regardless of who actually wins, you can tie up SMs for a turn or 2 for minimum points.

[Deleted]

My problem with getting into CC is that I am always going up against Blood Angels. You speak of all these percentages in cc but when it comes down to it, close order drill has no effect as a charging BA unit gets +1 I and +1 S. I can't countercharge, as they (my opponent) always gets the first charge. You can't break a marine's moral, either. Even in the rare circumstance that they fall back, they still recover the very next turn, just to return back to CC.
I learned a cool trick to keep these blood angels off your tail or ANY marine chapter. When a SM player looks at your lines and wants to charge, he sees even rows of tons of guardsmen, just waiting to be executed. In the event he wins CC, he can easily consolidate right into your next unit, blocking LOS. If you keep the marines constanlty moving in different directions, rather than straight forward, then you have the total advantage. What I mean is drop troops. Take the doctrine, deep strike 17 units (you might scatter and lose 1 or 2) 2 with demo charges, and rapid fire your plasma guns right into them. Make all your squads shooty with PGs, flamers, and MGs. Your MGs can get right behind those annoying dreadnoughts. Make sure your vets have meltas to ensure you can hit the dread. Build one really, really, really good command unit that excels in CC to help out either before mass clutter assault or after. Keeping one basilisk w/indirect is good to try to wipe out atleast one unit before the cavalry arrives.
This may not sound much like CC, but this is how the IG fights up close, with pistols in face, not sword in hand. By dropping that many units in every which direction and rapid firing into everything, The SM player will not know which unit to assault or even better, what direction to head in. It may be hard to break a SM's moral but this will break the player's moral!

[Deleted]

...thats a great tactic and i like it, i really do hate it when my friends death company and chaplain start exploiting the IG's lack of cc greatness...im gna try drop troops next time hehe see how that works...thnx fer that

[Warmaster Stabwhiskers]

Thats it boy! u gotta know how to Really hurt ur enemy!

[Deleted]

After the game I played with that tactic, my opponent agreed that he had alot more fun that way. Its really challenging for the SM player to charge into combat with only two marines at a time! ;D

[Deleted]

indeed!

For those of you who pound the ground, a good way to counter a solid marine advance is to plan ahead. Know your table and know that your opponent, if he wants to charge, is ALWAYS going to move the full 6".

When you target to shoot, take a glance at the actual measurement, not just your max range, and plan ahead a turn. when he gets just beyond charging range, run up a single squad of guardies and assault the SM player. If he's not in total shock, he'll at least have a squad locked in CC for a turn. This gives you the edge of moving the rest out of assault range.

-Myles

[majorjav]

It is true that IG can do some good things in CC. if you take doctrines like, close orde drill, hardened fighters, priests and so on, you can have a very deadly IG in CC! Having a I4, WS4 agianst marines is always a good thing.

[Deleted]

yeh...bout the downside is...tooling up fer cc will make for good cannon fodder. SM players dont like getting held up in cc with 3o guardsmen...when they have the chance and range...they will mow down a squad or two and thats some majoy point loss, esp when wasting points on die hards + hardened fighters.

otherwise...close order drill is fine with me

[Deleted]

Maybe someone can help me with this. I want to make a good counter-attack HQ unit and I mostly play against the new blood angels. In the last game I played, my command squad was wiped out with no hope in the first place. here is what I took:
HSO, powerfist, bolt pistol, carapace
Commisar, powerfist, bolt pistol, carapce
Priest, honorifica imperialis, bolt pistol, carapace, eviserator
4 guardsmen with grenade launchers

An honor guard unit forced me to make like 20 saves when I got charged, and the grenade launchers didn't kill a single model.
Does anybody have a good idea?

[Deleted]

Your first mistake was taking powerfists. Your second mistake was trying to take on Blood Angels in close combat. The grenade launchers were a good choice, but in this instance, meltas would be better. especially if you're looking to charge and counter-charge. At least that way, you get a shot or four off.

Against blood angels, your best defense is a wall of coherent light. stay back and blaze away. 4 plasma guns usually fry just about anything in your way (and you!). Close order drill is a good thing to have, just in case. It's pretty easy to tell when a blood angel is going to charge, and when that happens, huddle up.

[Deleted]

if you hav rough riders...take em...or in fact take 2 squads armed with hunting lances...place them sumwhere they can be safe...out of line of sight from enemy fire but within range of ure inf platoons engaged in cc. Take them on a good old fashioned cavalry charge and watch his marines blow up in ure face

[Deleted]

I really wish I could get ahold of some rough rider models, but our GW store hasn't carried them for awhile. Are they OOP? I've taken the shooty approach, but I want to win in CC with them, may seem impossible, but there has got to be a way. I like the melta gun approach, though! All I need now is a way to get a good command squad.

[Deleted]

Get a senior officer and equip him with a power sword and a keep ure commissar with a pwerfist...and make the rest of ure squad veterans...rather than just guardsmen...plus...its not JUST ure command dquad that can be tooled fer cc....ure vet sergeants on storm troopers can wield pwer weapons too...maybe bring down at least 1 0r 2 BA in a combat phase. PLus instead of melta gun...y not take a plasma gun instead....rapid fire heh? twice the damage

[Deleted]

Heheheheheh...plasma....