No Armour, No Drop troops, No Chance!?

[shockwave]

I'm currently Looking at do a guard army without any Tanks in it at all, nor am I wanting to do a drop troop army either so baring the Stealth cloaked light infantry angle is there a viable army out there?

The reason i am wanting to go without tanks is because i believe that i can get this tactic that i'm talking about here to work. Neither do i actually like Leman Russ's or Basilisks.

So that would sentinels and Chimeras but they would get killed by the Anti-tank weaponry that is now without a Leman Russ to shoot.

Now i'm not looking for a Tournement effective army, but i am wanting one that can win the occasional game (My Tau win enough that they bore me).

As for Doctrines, the following are a must.
Heavy Weapon Platoons
Light Infantry

These i like alot but could be talked out of taking them.
Grenadiers (I really like the Kasrkin models)
Iron Discipline
Sharp Shooters


I've written a list but it's smaller then my Tau army. Also Currently my 3 Platoon command squads (Command, Infantry and Heavy WEapons) cost 150 (or so) each but they are.. erm well
JO + 4 Veterans with Storm Bolters, Carapace, JO with Trademark and Macharian Cross. Iron Disclipline and Sharp Shooters.

I'm definately keep one unit like this as the conversions i've done look cool.

But anyway some help, ideas and advice is needed.
Thanks.

[Deleted]

Sorry Shockwave but HOW CAN YOU NOT LIKE LEMAN RUSS'S AND BASELISKS! Quickly report to your local Commissar for a little chat.

On a more serious note i think that any IG army without armour is at a serious disadvantage but is an interesting project. Fortunately the 'Light Infantry' doctrine does plug a lot of gaps left without armour. Personnely i suggest maxing out on heavy weapon platoons and buying sniper rifles for your infantry squads.

I'm looking foward to any conversions.

Thanks,

Karskin.

[majorjav]

The only infantry theme can work but you are going to have very hard times...I know it for sure (drop troops without any tank, fluff wise!).
Like to see your list and mini's once you have settled it down.
Good luck!
Cheers

[Woz]

I don't use armour in most of my games but I take lots of HW's to make up for it.

[thefishki345]

hmm all infantry is fine

i dont really like the leman russ lol, it looks cool before its primed and if its assembled well but mines the oppossite of that. But saying that i have a chimera and a leman russ in my army, if you are going to do this then you propably should do grenadiers backed up by normal guardsmen and like 6-9 heavy weapons teams (depending on points)

[Turtleboy(AWOL)]

I did an infantry study (spending a solid 2 years using nothing but my infantry and their token sentinel) and found that, as woz stated, the only way to give guard infantry a chance to fare decently on the field is by overloading them with heavy weapons, sitting in cover (preferably with cameleoline) and unloading for max effect on any enemies that pop their heads up downrange.

I'd seriously consider some ogryn (on a related note, someone said they're T3 around here lately, and they're not, they're better than that but anyway...) so you'll be able to stop armies that (inevitably) make it to melee range.

consider split formations, I've heard that the best thing a guard army can do vs. mechanized eldar is infiltrate as far forward as possible to make them dismount and clear out your infiltrators at which point you decimate their fragile butts with massed ranged fire before they can remount and come sledge down your main forces wholesale.

vs. other armies you'll want to split to the sides - part of your army on one far flank and the other part on the other far flank. make the enemy walk into your guns twice. infiltration can add or detract to this but if nothing else it allows you to deploy after your enemy in 2/3 of the mission based scenarios which is a huge advantage.

good luck!

P.S. winning with an all infantry guard army is probably the most rewarding experience in warhammer 40k. your army will be so fragile that you'll face a critical event (kill or be killed) in practically every turn. if you fail to perform in one turn you will know you've just lost and spend the rest of the game sliding into defeat. this is why the proliferation of mass heavy weapons in a guard infantry army is so important - to make sure you can kill what needs to die. still, even with maxing out your guns, sometimes it just isn't enough (though sharpshooters can be a godsend - with what you're thinking though, that may be too many points in doctrine upgrades to think about).

right, so expect to lose alot, but when you win, it's like you have just won 6 games in a row - one win for every turn that you've staved off death and defeat to somehow, against all odds, pull thru and achieve victory!

the battles I won with guard infantry were few and far between, but I would have a morale high for a 2-3 weeks after winning a game that allowed me to not be effected by any slaughters I experienced.

ultimately, however, my morale sunk really low and I started looking at other model lines just for an army that performed better and was more capable on the field - something that 'stood a chance.'

after looking at the IG tank companies for a couple years, I'd actually grown a fondness for the look of the good ol' leman russ - I too completely disliked the model to begin with. after a while to warm up to the tanks, you may find that you like them (again, took me a couple YEARS).

in the end, guard is designed as an army with vast infantry supported by armor. removing the armor aspect from the list forces you to play at a disadvantage. the only work around I can think of is the 'heavy weapon platoons' restricted unit.

I tried winning with line infantry but couldn't get the job done - couldn't kill all the rhinos, couldn't kill all the infantry - just didn't have enough firepower. adding in a strong command platoon laden with heavy weapon squads was a HUGE benefit to my performance on the field. I can only imagine what adding 3x heavy support choices worth of heavy weapon platoons would do (!!)

think of your army just like every other army - don't forget your heavy support just because you're light infantry - it's making a disadvantage into a glaring disadvantage. everyone else will have those heavy guns that can reach out and touch you - you need to have your heavies too, in whatever form they may take.

[shockwave]

I've tried and tried to get a Guard list writen up, I can't find one that i'm the slightest bit happy with. The last one i did almost had as many Heavy Weapons as Troop models, and it looked so wrong. Might end up stealing someone else's list and moding it, No i won't thats wrong too.

Grr

[Deleted]

Loading up on heavy weapons in your infantry squads does compensate for battlecannons and other tank guns but it makes the infantry as inflexible as an anvil and its living hell trying to foothop across the board to capture objectives with squads laden with heavy weapons.

[Deleted]

as much heavy weapons as troops? how does that happen? if i were u i would put all heavy weapons into fire support or anti-tank squads and keep the infantry with special weapons and good old fashioned lasguns.

[Deleted]

Yeah, I play a balanced 1000 points force with 40 plain guardsmen, their commands, karskins, and a Russ. I have to say, after I'm done all infantry shooting and I plug 5 marines with the tank...makes me wanna play an armoured company. If you're only fielding infantry, get a veteran squad, and mebbe even the veteran doctrine and load up on BS4 special weapons. It sounds primitive, but you're gonna have a hell of a time trying to take down MEQs with nothing bigger then a heavy bolter.

[Deleted]

The Grenadiers and Veterens doctrines offer availability for BS4 troops.

[Deleted]

I have to agree that if you are going to go all infantry with Guard then you need the specilized troops. Vets, Stormtroopers, Ratlings, Ogryns etc along with the Heavy Weapons as well to keep them alive as they foot slog it up the field to the enemy. Other than that.. good luck mate.. just like TB stated before its a tough and often humiliating defeat if you go straight infantry all the time but those few times you win are really worth it though..

Cheers
Gris

[Deleted]

Yep, everyone listen to Gris.

[Turtleboy(AWOL)]

you could always do a 'trench warfare line unit' style army - one that's massed infantry with boatloads of artillery. do mortars practically everywhere, take thudd guns and/or heavy mortars (if you're willing/able to use forgeworld stuffs) and sit within 8" of your table edge and just decimate the enemy as it comes at you. my rival plays an army like this and it's impossible for me to beat - it's really frusterating. full assault armies will chew you up but shooty armies will die horribly at your hands since you're nothing but a heavy weapon barrage army that doesn't rely on line of sight or rifles for the most part.

[The Refined Gentleman (M.I.A)]

i can't wait to try my russy!

[Deleted]

i play with a imperial guard army and use three infanry platoons against a mod army like bugs or orks ad you can kill hem by dozens but it is usefull to get some autocannons to take care of the largr mansters and vehicles

[Deleted]

I mostly play an all infantry army and I find it to be quite rewarding. Even after have a space wolf 13th company lord hit my battle line grrrrr. Nothing ruins someones day like a rune priest or a chaplain charging your guys and you killing him ;D

The only way i've found it to be effective to use heavy weapons in every squad. Who needs to walk up and seize the objective if everyone is dead? Atm I'm trying to figure out how to work in some counter attack units to my army list. Oh and I play a mordian list and i've found their docterians to be very effective agaist meq.

[Mabus]

I have a healthy respect for people who use foot-slogging armies. I on the other hand, am a strong beliver in rolling about 100,000 tons of tank at the enemy and see him soil himself.

[Turtleboy(AWOL)]

I've rocked out 2 wins in my last 2 battles with a full on infantry army. no vehicles, not even a sentinel in the lists and it's been at the 1500pt level in both games. being able to use infantry is a major asset to a guard commander and vs. certain opponents, it's what you've got to do to actually win! yes, that's right, I said you need infantry only armies to win vs some opponents. armies that crush armor are what I'm talking about mainly, but also armies that nerf pie plates. an army that crushes armor is the eldar, or the tau. they have the mobility to outflank any armor that comes before them and the technology to punch thru the thickest armor plating when their opponent leaves them no choice but to confront that armor head on. in times like this, it's detrimental to take armor to the field, so, if you're skilled enough with infantry warfare, you can actually do better without vehicles. the thing is, unfortunately, that alot of the guard commanders out there rely on vehicles as a crutch - they don't know how to maximize the potential of their infantrymen and win battles with nothing more than boots and cardboard flak jackets (ok though, there is a MAJOR value to taking carapace armor, so I can't say cardboard flak jackets ).

the second type of opponent that infantry armies excell against that I mentioned above is armies that nerf pie plates. if you hit a carnifex with a pie plate is it any different than hitting it with a lascannon? no. why not take a battery of 3 lascannons for less than the cost of a pie plate chucker then? why not give your troops cameleoline so that those lascannons are harder to dig out of that building that typically provides 4+ cover but now provides 3+ cover? see what I'm saying that troops can do better than tanks vs. some opponents? one would consider taking a hellhound too - but, I would offer, WHY!? the hellhound is an infantry killer - so are your infantry though. with enough numbers you can kill the big stuff and often times deal with the little stuff in melee, or, if the little stuff manages to break the back of a firebase in melee, then sit back and laugh as it's forced to walk into the guns of your other flanks firebase as they have to come after their next intended victims only to become victims themselves.

infantry can dominate in battles, but the key to a great guard force and being a great guard commander is knowing what force is needed to combat what threat. you're fighting marines? you need armor. you're facing nids? you need infantry. infantry armies can totally work, but not against certain armies. this is why you need the tanks in your arsenal in my humble opinion.

P.S.: when I started guard, I hated the look of the leman russ but over time it really grew on me - eventually I even found myself WANTING them just for their distinctive look. there's nothing like having a leman russ on the field facing down your foes who are freaking out and panicing to keep out from being under the watchful eye of your heavy armor.

in closing, apocolypse is going to see the release of some AMAZING new armor for the guard in the form of a pair of superheavy battle tanks that just look awesome. if you don't like the look of the leman russ, then you might like the look of the hellhammer and baneblade - they have a real different look and have got that 'high tech' aura about them that, lets face it, the leman russ completely lacks.

[Mabus]

Good for you TB, like i said before I have a hell of a lot of respect for people using infantry armies. I am relitavely new to guard and therefore do not have the confidents to collect an army like this. I have always wanted an army with loads of converted praetorian rough riders, if I ever do decide to stop using tanks, I will probably end up with 30 converted cavalry models. But until then............


Hellhammer? I am intrigued, tell me more. Sorry if you have already discussed this tank but I have been busy for a coupple of days.

[Turtleboy(AWOL)]

the main gun (speculation here and in no way based on fact or even rumors) looks like it might be a flame weapon. it doesn't have the look that ballistic shell based tank barrels have (like the baneblade or even a demolisher type cannon) and it's definately not a plasma main gun (lack of plasma coils) so the only thing left is a flame weapon of some sort, which kinda goes with the 'hell' part of its name what with the hellhound being a flametank and all. complete speculation but yeah. seems like some interesting sponson options, in this pic it's got twin linked multimeltas in it's side sponsons - pretty menacing looking!

ultimately, however, this is a total deviation from the topic at hand, so while offering you an answer on the hellhammer, lets now shift this topic back onto point regarding infantry armies and their viability on the 40k battlefield.

[knight (M.I.A)]

Well when I look at the Hellhammer I'd say it's a pure AT unit. Short and long range as it only has few heavy bolters but loads of AT weapons (mulit meltas, lascannons, demolisher cannon).
The main gun is definatly no flame weapon as it misses any igniting device like the normal flamers and the barrel is too huge. if you want to get some range with flame weapons you need to get the flaming liqud/gel with high pressure througha small opening. with a big opening it will more or less just drop on the ground directly in front of the tank. It looks more like a short barreled version of some sort of high velocity gun with a linked Autocannon. So basically I'd say it's some sort of Vanquisher cannon but with shorter range...