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Post by Turtleboy(AWOL) on Oct 2, 2006 2:53:58 GMT -5
Anyone have any advice on offensive infantry strategies/tactics? I dont think there actually IS an offensive infantry stratagy other than 'take carapace armor' (which I dont have the luxury of) so I guess all that remains is some tactics that might help in moving offensively with an infantry heavy army.
this question has been stumping me for a while, so I figured I'd throw it out there for you all to think on too and perhaps post a witty reply about.
so what are some tricks to successfully attacking with guard infantry?
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Post by Turtleboy(AWOL) on Oct 4, 2006 3:12:56 GMT -5
I've been considering armored fist squads, you could keep it cheap, not take a heavy weapon, keep the chimera stripped down. prolly bout 175pts for a barebones armored fist (off the top of my head) that'd add some mobility. perhaps run it up a flank where you could keep it's front facing the biggest amount of enemy fire so as to keep those vulnerable sides out of reach.
might be good for some form of flank attack.
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Post by Turtleboy(AWOL) on Oct 5, 2006 5:27:00 GMT -5
I gave in and took carapace armor doctrine to allow me to move without having whole squads instakilled
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Post by Deleted on Oct 13, 2006 21:03:43 GMT -5
I noticed that to have an effective offencive infantry you need to have a balanced shooty and mobile element.
the shooty element lays down covering fire to thin down the ranks of the enemy as well as taunty the enemy to shoot back at the shooty element.
the mobile element runs ups to the opponent and rapid fires-flames the more stubbourn induviduals. the mobile element usually has armour involved to provide as mobile cover.
what i usually roster for 1000pts is:
shooty: 1 command-hvy btr/melta 2 inf sqd-autocannon/melta or plasma 1 mortar squad 5 ratlings 1 basalisk
mobile: 20 conscripts-2 flamers 1 command-2GL/pw 9 troopers-melta and m. bombs 1 russ w/ h-las
notice that i have several indirect fire weapons... and scary ones at that. this will encourage the opposition to move closer to prevent being blown to smitherines. i also have included pinning weapons... never underestimate the possibility for the opponent to just sit tight and get shot at, ruins the whole battle line and sends the enemy to you piece meal.
as the enemy gets closer your mobile element will move foward to greet them... around turn 2 to 3 you should be within rapid firing and flamer range. the mobile element will also be largly intact as you have an AV14 cover blocking LOS. consider the psycological effect that 20 guardsmen with 2 flamers and a battle cannon rumbbling closer to the enemy will have... use this mind game to make your opponent to make a mistake. the command sqd acts in a supporting role as a leadership hub as well as a fire support with the 2 GL. the storm troopers can also lend fire if necc, 9 hellguns rapid firing is not to be scoffed at, but their main role is that of armour hunter.
ive also included 3 sanctioned psykers as a random element but they are more to add flavour then anything else.
i have found this to be a successfull list and have managed a draw to win in most cases. cept if the opposition is a necron player and he has a monolith... then im in trouble... thinking of changing Acannons for Mlaunchers.
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Post by Turtleboy(AWOL) on Oct 14, 2006 1:28:09 GMT -5
missile launchers are prone to whole turns of shooting with no hits though having them in multiple is helpful to prevent that problem from occuring. nice post though, got me thinking
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2006 4:08:39 GMT -5
If you want an offensive army you either need chimeras or carapace armour. Otherwise you will get mauled as soon as you leave cover or are in rapid fire range. tasadur got it right, I play offensively (of sorts) by taking both an offensive section and a defensive section and here's what i take in a 1500 pts game;
Command squad of death, (officer, commissar, priest) Lascannon squad 1st (red) platoon with 2 missile/plasma squads, and 2 meltaguns in command 2nd (purple) platoon with 2 autocannon/plasma squads, and command squad with flamer and power sword/bolt pistol Basilisk with indirect fire demo charge squad with 2 flamers (maybe changed to 5 rough riders when they arrive)
This is my defensive part of the army. It can pour out a respectable amount of fire with enough counter assault units to deal with anyone who gets too close. The platoon command squads are flexible as they can either sit back or advance.
Now for the offensive part
1 leman russ with 3 heavy bolters and smoke launchers. 1 stormtrooper squad with meltaguns in chimera with extra armour and smoke Another stormtrooper squad with plasmaguns in chimera with extra armour and smoke.
On first turn my offensive units rush forward 12 inches and pop smoke. Second turns sees chimeras race forward another 12 inch and stormtroopers bail out and rapid fire everything they got. While the leman russ breaks off having done its job of escorting chimeras.
People say chimeras suck because of their side armour, but it's all about how you use them. I put the first chimera on my extreme left flank (usually, can vary according to terrain of course but it always sits on an extreme flank) so that one side is protected. The second chimera goes beside the first so the first chimera reveals no side armour and the second only has one side showing. Then i place the leman russ beside the second chimera, so that it is impossible to hit the side armour of my chimeras. Creating a wall of AV12 armour front and side with a AV14 front leman russ, three vehicles wide. Then charge forward 12 inches as one and pop smoke. This has a HUGE psychological affect on the enemy and no-one expects it. After seeing the surprised look on my opponents face, he can only do 2 things, fire EVERYTHING he has at it or leave it alone. I tried this tactic on both 4' x 4' and 6' x 4' boards and it works wonders, more so on 6' x 4' boards as your opponent is spread too thinly to deal with it.
Hope that helps
Edit: I don't use traits, so instead i play codex. Not sure if that's relevant but there you go.
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Post by Turtleboy(AWOL) on Oct 14, 2006 4:39:00 GMT -5
very nice madman! that's quite the crafty use of chimeras playing to their strengths
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2006 4:37:47 GMT -5
I like the clever use of chimera and russ combo and the whole psycological effect that a charging armoured division will have. I've never played with the chimera before and i've always wanted to try it out... i guess whats stopping me is that i really like horde style of play.... more is best
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Post by Turtleboy(AWOL) on Oct 15, 2006 13:34:43 GMT -5
I like the strat you introduced to the conversation about dual elements shooty and assaulty working together. reminds me of bait and switch
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2006 18:18:16 GMT -5
funny you should mention about the bait and switch tactic. 1 of my jr officers has the macharian cross. this is prob one of the least used medallions and i thought that i would give it a try. i've played with it twice and forgot it twice as well. although i think it has potential. especially when you have played with it a number of times, by then your opponent will notice your officer and rethink about his deployment. could be a battle winner. ;D
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Post by Turtleboy(AWOL) on Oct 15, 2006 22:00:48 GMT -5
that's the one that essentially gives a 'scouts' move to any unit within 6" of the officer but must stay within deployment zone rules yeah? I could see it used with infiltrators to move a squad from behind a forest up into the forest where they can start shooting - would be a nice edge but I'm not sure if it'd be worth the points personally. how would you use it?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2006 22:08:58 GMT -5
in theory i would use this wargear as a psychological play...
eg. if your opponent can see that there is a lascannon AT squad with clear LOS to vehical routes then he will be clumsy in his deployment when deploying his tanks.
vice versa...
if he places his tanks first (which is usually the case since its a heavy support choice) you can reposition your AT squad so that it has a better LOS.
this are just theory at the moment... not quite sure if it will pan out... will post to let ppl know of results
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Post by Turtleboy(AWOL) on Oct 23, 2006 22:13:37 GMT -5
true but heavy weapon squads that are apart of the HQ deploy well after heavy support making them optimally deployed anyway.
do tell if you find an ingenious usage for that medal, I have pretty much dismissed it as 'interesting but useless'
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Post by Deleted on Oct 26, 2006 2:57:03 GMT -5
If you want an offensive army you either need chimeras or carapace armour. Otherwise you will get mauled as soon as you leave cover or are in rapid fire range. tasadur got it right, I play offensively (of sorts) by taking both an offensive section and a defensive section and here's what i take in a 1500 pts game; Command squad of death, (officer, commissar, priest) Lascannon squad 1st (red) platoon with 2 missile/plasma squads, and 2 meltaguns in command 2nd (purple) platoon with 2 autocannon/plasma squads, and command squad with flamer and power sword/bolt pistol Basilisk with indirect fire demo charge squad with 2 flamers (maybe changed to 5 rough riders when they arrive) This is my defensive part of the army. It can pour out a respectable amount of fire with enough counter assault units to deal with anyone who gets too close. The platoon command squads are flexible as they can either sit back or advance. Now for the offensive part 1 leman russ with 3 heavy bolters and smoke launchers. 1 stormtrooper squad with meltaguns in chimera with extra armour and smoke Another stormtrooper squad with plasmaguns in chimera with extra armour and smoke. On first turn my offensive units rush forward 12 inches and pop smoke. Second turns sees chimeras race forward another 12 inch and stormtroopers bail out and rapid fire everything they got. While the leman russ breaks off having done its job of escorting chimeras. People say chimeras suck because of their side armour, but it's all about how you use them. I put the first chimera on my extreme left flank (usually, can vary according to terrain of course but it always sits on an extreme flank) so that one side is protected. The second chimera goes beside the first so the first chimera reveals no side armour and the second only has one side showing. Then i place the leman russ beside the second chimera, so that it is impossible to hit the side armour of my chimeras. Creating a wall of AV12 armour front and side with a AV14 front leman russ, three vehicles wide. Then charge forward 12 inches as one and pop smoke. This has a HUGE psychological affect on the enemy and no-one expects it. After seeing the surprised look on my opponents face, he can only do 2 things, fire EVERYTHING he has at it or leave it alone. I tried this tactic on both 4' x 4' and 6' x 4' boards and it works wonders, more so on 6' x 4' boards as your opponent is spread too thinly to deal with it. Hope that helps Edit: I don't use traits, so instead i play codex. Not sure if that's relevant but there you go. I like this but it does have some flaws. Firstly, you are effectively wasting the points on the Russ, as it is moving you won't be using the yummy battlecannon IMHO. Its a big sacrifice to have a completely mobile Russ as the points cost is fairly large as well as the complete lack of use the gun on the top is getting lol. Secondly, the two squads of Stormtroopers are going to pop out and meet the enemy head on. Against Tau this means S5 rapid firing right into you, and that means extreme pain. Most other armies can fight close combat far better than S3 Stormtroopers, so if these guys get thumped you have a Russ stranded up the end of the field as well as two Chimeras. Boom. Big points lost if the opponent knows what he is doing. Finally, we aren't playing on flat tables with nothing, and for the most part there is terrain such as trees etc on the flanks. That's always where it ends up! Three of these vehicles side by side means it will be very long at the front. Ergo when the vehicles split up to negotiate terrain you may expose the side of your Chimera to a sneaky Lascannon. If it is stunned, you basically lose a turn on your assault. I'm sure it works well on some tables, but as they say, no play survives contact with the enemy. That was fairly long winded! -Syn Edit: Removed the measurements as the post make them longer than the posting font.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 26, 2006 18:15:33 GMT -5
About terrain;
The thing with terrain on flanks is that you can still come inside and have all your side armour protected (terrain still covers chimera side armour) so thats not the problem. What casuses minor difficulties is when terrain forces your tanks to spread out, but terrain still blocks line of sight or causes hull down so its effects are limited. The point isn't to have a perfect formation but to get you chimeras into your opponents deployment zone by turn 2. I have played with this tactic on all sorts of boards and the only problem i have is when on a terrain heavy table an immobolised vehicle creates a bottle neck but this is rare.
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On using the leman russ;
The leman russ has to be there to draw the fire, every opponent fears the battle cannon and will try to detroy it. This is the same every time i play. Take todays game for example, i rushed 12" and popped smoke. My opponent, playing Ultramarines, fired a devastator squad at it which contained 4 missiles, a biker with a melta gun and an assault cannon at it, and only destroyed the battle cannon. This left him with one lascannon to shoot a single chimera which bounced off the front armour. the leman russ only has to travel 12" on the first turn after that you can do what you want with it as it has served its purpose. On the second turn my leman russ breaks off, moves 6" and lets its battle cannon rip, not in todays game though, but never mind i still had 9 heavy bolter shots. ;D
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WIth regards to storm troopers in close quarters;
You can weaken an enemies flank simply by deployment. I put a basilisk on my other flank so to get under its minimum range they wont deploy heavily on the flank that i want to rush or they get pie-plated to death. Storm troopers will always be first to fire as they disembark from chimera and rapid fire. Today, both my stormtroopers were in the Ultramarines deployment zone by turn 2. Both disembarked and the plasma squad rapid fired and shot dead the 6 man lascannon tactical squad in one round of shooting on its own. You want to put firewarriors in my way, be my guest. By turn 3 his entire right flank had collapsed as i mopped up his bikes, and his predator bit the dust on turn 1. Because we were playing recon i won as my two chimeras formed a wall in his deployment zone with my remaining storm trooper squad and platoon command squad behind them. I plan to run a unit of rough riders behind them in case my stormies get bogged down in close combat, but so far this hasn't happened.
Hope that clears up a few things. Remember we're Imperial Guard and no-one expects a lot of movement. Everytime i pull this off on someone new, i get the good old, 'Well i didn't expect that'. which i think is half the battle. From then on you have the initiative, make them pay.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 26, 2006 18:18:45 GMT -5
Thanks for clearing that up, sounds a lot more in depth now
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Post by Turtleboy(AWOL) on Oct 26, 2006 18:45:32 GMT -5
yeah, that's pretty crafty!
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Post by Rolling Thunder on Sept 24, 2007 5:04:54 GMT -5
Whenever I have to actually take a postition ( or worse, assault one) I will invest in an ogryn squad a tooled up command squad and at least two special weapons teams. Hellhounds are a good support bet too, and the Griffon is worth its weight in gold here. ( only slighly more than a line infantry squad.
3 griffons, 2 hellhound, an AF squad, 2 spec wep teams in chimera, command platoon in chimera, 10 footslogging ogryns, 35 man infanty platoon.
1 hellhound on the left flank, with spec weapons teams and AF squad, other hellhound on the left with super 8 man command squad on the right, infantry platoon + Griffons+extras shell the bejesus out of the enemy.
Hope it works for you!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2007 20:54:01 GMT -5
Want a fun offensive army?
HQ
Junior Officer -Honrofica Imperius -Iron Discipline -Power Weapon -2 Lascannons
Anti-Tank Squad 3 Lascannons
4 Indepedent Commissars, Bolt Pistol, Powerfist each.
Conscript Platoon led by a Commissar 5 Flamers 5 Platoons
Conscript Platoon led by a Commissar 5 Flamers 5 Platoons
Conscript Platoon led by a Commissar 5 Flamers 5 Platoons
Conscript Platoon led by a Commissar 5 Flamers 5 Platoons
The tactics. The command Squad and the anti tank squad attempt to take out tanks and monsterous creatures. The Commissars lead their conscripts into close combat with a vicious charge!
I would love to field this army. Sadly, I don't have anywhere near the models. I don't plan on doing any other armies, one day, all field this or something similar.
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Post by Turtleboy(AWOL) on Oct 5, 2007 23:05:57 GMT -5
unfortunately independent commissars means commissars become independent characters so are the first to die if you actually move them into base to base so they can swing their powerfists which leaves the conscripts at Ld5 or whatever. it's great if you strip out the powerfists and just use the conscripts as a human shield to keep people away from the commissar - then you get a tar pit from hell. every time they would break and run, instead the commissar just executes a random 4pt conscript and they proceed to decide to stay and fight!
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Post by twerd on Oct 5, 2007 23:48:16 GMT -5
with the machirin cross is extremly effective as you can change the position of one unit in your depolment zone this means you can postion an entire platoon for a flank maovement that your oppent never saw coming and has to redploy and thus miss out on the reall threats
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Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2007 0:02:42 GMT -5
clever use im going to put this on my hso in my hardboyz list.
basically a good assault army is to keep your soldiers light with flamers or grenade launchers. if it still hits its going to make your opponent make some saves. and rolling those dice will cause some trouble some how. it may take up his luck or it may kill a marine or some xeno!
hellhounds are great in assaults as they deny that preciouse cover save.
basically i run 8 full squads of guardsmen 4 have grenade launchers and 4 have plasma guns. the grenades are always moving into and out of covering while shooting while the plasma rush forth and just shoot at rapid fire range.
chimeras always add power as well. seriously i think the daemon prince will fear the chimera now with all that shooting.
i digress though make sure its mobile and keep your heavy weapons in support squads or heavy weapon platoons. this way your guardsmen are always moving and getting an oppertunity to capture objectives and to hopefully fire a punch of lasguns makeing the opponent roll those dice and something is bound to fail sooner or later.
fyi one of my grunts shot a termie with a lasgun and it failed everything. it was a lucky one shot.
then my hso w/ power weapon charged the 3 remaining termies and they all got hit and they all got wounded and they all failed the invulnerable save! hooray for the hso!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2007 0:09:28 GMT -5
Chimera rushing can be brutally effective, IF your clever about it. Don't get in the habit of any particular arrangement or formation however, people will quickly pick up on it and counter you. As an aside, I find that ANY effective forward element of an IG army can shock and awe your opponent quite a bit. Chimera assualts supported by rough riders, hellhounds, drop sentinel etc. can be extremely scary! Some ratlings or a vindicare in a forward position forcing saves on monstrous creatures and heavy infantry or low-ld infantry help in this way too :] meanwhile your big guns and heavy weapons at the back can have a field day in peace.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2007 0:38:42 GMT -5
i really suggest reading the munitorium book and the tactica imperialis for good set up and stratagies. its pretty basic but still a plan is better than no plan.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2007 10:10:21 GMT -5
unfortunately independent commissars means commissars become independent characters so are the first to die if you actually move them into base to base so they can swing their powerfists which leaves the conscripts at Ld5 or whatever. it's great if you strip out the powerfists and just use the conscripts as a human shield to keep people away from the commissar - then you get a tar pit from hell. every time they would break and run, instead the commissar just executes a random 4pt conscript and they proceed to decide to stay and fight! Yeah, but then its not like you have a Powerfist Commissar that has basically 50 wounds! Oh well, it would still look funny on the field.
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